Same old GreenHorn Question!

BigMccorm · Jan 25, 2006

I personally have seen the damage both types of machines can do. Even though the skid-steer is "turf-friendly" that really doesn't mean that it is. It will still do considerable damage to the turf unless you go incredebly slow and not turn around. The tractor would be my choice. Not only are the implements less expensive, it will not do as much damage to the turf. But the amount of damage is based on what kind of tires you choose. The R1 will do the most damage and the R4 the least. Your choice here is based solely on how much damage you can afford to do to your clients yards and how much traction you need.

The tree companies around me all use tractors but I am not one of them so I can not comment on why they chose tractors over skid-steers.

There are pros and cons to both so it is really up to what you feel most confident using. Definately test drive before you buy, because this is a very costly decision to make.

The best of luck to you on your decision.

Ryno1 · Jan 25, 2006

I think any of the major or "sub"major brands will work for you. Check and see whats available locally, talk to the dealers (and service people). Decide what size of tractor you need and the equipment - then start narrowing your choice of brand down. One think to remember compare apples to apples a DX29 and TC35 are not comparable units. If fancy gauges etc are unimportant, take a look at NH TC 30 it's the workhorse. I'd agree with the gentleman that said Kubota was top of the line but it's also top of the price line.

When I started looking in my mind JD and Kubota were ranked one and two. By the time I finished NH was #1. I liked the dealer, the price was good, and the fancy gauges and stuff on the Kubota just looked like something else to go wrong.

The DEALER is probably more important then the brand when your talking about JD, Kubota, NH, Koiti, etc

AutoUnionTypeC · Jan 25, 2006

( Anyone have a good reason for me to possibly stay away from the Montana 2740? for what I will be using it for lifting wood into truck and trailer, grading yard moving split firewood, loading mainly? All ears.)

I wouldn't say there's any reason to stay away from the Montana. I would give both Kioti and Mahindra a hard look though. John/Ct Tree Guy seems to think a bigger tractor is what you need......I'll defer to him on that as it's his trade. But for sure you’re not going to get a 48hp tractor on 15K much less the attachments you'll want and need.

If you’re looking for a tractor with a loader in the 15k range I suspect you'll end up with a 25-30 hp tractor. So I think your Montana 2740 is in play as is the Mahindra 15 series tractors and the Kioti CK25 & 30. I’ve only gotten to see one Montana so I’ll not speak to them but both Kioti and Mahindra make rugged high quality machines. I certainly wouldn’t discount them as lesser brands.

One thing I have to point out to you as more than a little ironic, is the fact that you’ve been warned off Kioti yet you’re considering a Daedong powered machine in the Montana 2470. Daedong markets its own tractors sold here in North America as Kioti.

Regards, Jamie

CT_Tree_Guy · Jan 25, 2006

Just a gentle "rebuttal" of a couple of things mentioned recently:

I think that the tires that will do the least damage to lawns, all things equal, are the R3's (turfs); followed by R4's (Industrials), and then R1's (ags).

It's my impression that Deeres are a little more expensive in general than Kubotas, but not by much, and especially in the case of the Twenty series, the higher price tag just might represent a "better" value, depending how one feels about the usefulness of some of the advanced features JD has packed into those tractors, like LoadMatch and IMatch. The Twenty series cabs sound like they're considerably better than the Kubota, but you've probably ruled out a cab for what you're going to be doing, as I did.

I carefully check out the NH's, and test-drove one (a TC33 I believe), and I think they're very good tractors, but to me the edge went to Kubota vs. Shibaura. I am of the opinion that Kubotas are a little more reliable, based on thousands of posts that I have read.

This brings me to my last comment (loud cheering). I keep hearing others say how important the dealer is in the process of deciding what brand of tractor to buy. To me, that hardly entered the picture. I decided what machine I wanted, then bought that make and model from whoever had it at a price I felt comfortable with. I do almost all of my own work anyway, and by buying a Kubota, really don't expect to need to have any warranty work done by the dealer. Speaking of price, I got my 5030 with 853 loader, turfs, HD bucket w/cutting edge and a block heater for $24,950. For what this machine can do, I think that's a bargain. You're going to need a tough, strong machine - I encourage you to look very long and very hard at anything else before you decide not to get a 5030HST.

As always, I'm not "pushing" this model just because I have one; it's just that this is the tractor that made sense to me after doing probably TOO MUCH research, and I haven't regretted one single thing. Whatever tractor you buy, you're going to wish it could pick up even more than it does; that's the nature of our business. I just don't think there's a hydro tractor out there that will lift more than this one will.

Good luck, John

Passionfortrees · Jan 25, 2006

Ryno, thanks for your imput, I have located a NH TC35Da with loader and 250 hours year 2000 R4 Tires for 15000. I saw pics and this machine is emaculate. Ballast filled tires weighing about 5000lbs. Got me thinking, it is a verynice looking machine as well as powerful enough I believe? Choosing a Machine with more Horsepower used low hours kept nice, Versus lesser horse, brand new Montana 2740 , Lighter machine still lifting 1500lbs versus 2000 lbs I beleive all implements are still availabe for me in future with both machines? Which way do I go. Or keep shopping , keep learning and another 6 months go by I am still lifting lots of heavy wood by hand , taking longer and hating it more and more ! I liked your input on NH experience. Thank you., Also wow didnt even know much about tractors before using this discussion with all of you, Just going by what I heard and not by my own feelings about Kioti's , but ironic it is about the daedong motor in both machines! Today was a lifting wood day and it was muddy and wet, would matter what machine I had today , tractor, or skid steer, both would have messed up alot today. Goes with the work and communication with costomer before job is started will help out in many jobs with machine !

IslandTractor · Jan 26, 2006

$15000 sounds like a good price for what is a barely broken in TC 35 with loader. You could barely buy a 20hp machine with FEL new for that price. I understand CT is trying to talk you into a bigger machine (the boy loves spending other peoples money almost as much as he loves writing his opinions on TBN /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif (Sorry CT, you know it's true). However, you could equip the TC35 with a grapple and have a very effective brush and wood moving tool and save about 10 grand. I know the bigger machines will have greater FEL capacity but for someone who is trying to avoid damage to lawns, I don't think you want to be carrying over a ton of wood at a time. Smaller bites equals treading more gently.

CT_Tree_Guy · Jan 26, 2006

the boy loves spending other peoples money almost as much as he loves writing his opinions on TBN (Sorry CT, you know it's true). 

Guilty as charged, where do I sign? /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

But if it please the court, before sentencing, I'd just like to say that I really do believe that money well-spent the first time can pay big dividends down the road. Man, you should have seen the bota-beast today, tooling around on a muddy, snowy lawn, kicking serious tree butt. I used every ounce of loader strength to rip a very large, uprooted pine stump out of the ground and plop it onto my crane truck. Had to rip it in half first, but there is no way in he$$ a lesser loader would have gotten us off of that job. Loaded up the logs in no time flat, filled up the chip truck without dragging a single stick of brush.

When it comes to business use; beg, borrow but just don't steal whatever it takes to get the "right" machine. The 5030 carries 2,400 lb. logs in the front grapple and 1,600 lb. ones in the back, simultaneously, and lawn damage is a virtual non-issue, even on a sloppy day like today. With firm lawns, you flatten down the grass and leave virtually no ruts. That machine is amazing.

Rich, you know your finances better than anyone on the planet. I just think that assuming you can get the financing, it almost doesn't make a real difference how much your monthly payment is. The higher the payment is, the more tractor you're going to have under your butt, and the more money it will be bringing in.

There's a tree guy I know who just bought a log truck for $175,000. He also has a $325,000 crane, an $80,000 chipper and a $100,000 bucket truck. He has a roll-on/roll-off truck, chip trucks, stump grinders and god knows what else. He's been in business for a long, long time. The point of my story is that the stuff pays for itself. Don't be afraid to buy a $25,000 tractor, plus attachments. It will pay for itself, and you'll have FUN using it.

John (And hey Rich, check your mail - click that little flashing thing next to "Main Index").

****

50 years with no parole?? What???? But, but ... hey, can you loosen up these handcuffs a little, my hands are turning purple!!! Police brutality!! I'm gonna sue you when I get out!! Dang, I knew I should have hired an attorney! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Ryno1 · Jan 26, 2006

$15,000 for a slightly used TC35, that sounds like a great deal. Understand I really like the TC30 for ME but the 35 sounds like a better match for what you do.

To the gentlemen who preferred to pick his brand and then his dealer, that works great for you since you do almost all of your own work. Me, I can change oil, starters etc, in other words minor work. I get fuel, electrical or hydra problem thats obvious and simple and I'm lost. So for me and others like me, the dealer is very important more important the brand. In my case the JD/Kubota dealer and his service people are simply a**holes. The NH dealer has been great to work with. If it had been the other way around I would have spent the extra money to get Kubota (I liked it better then the comparable JD - same dealer).

CT_Tree_Guy · Jan 26, 2006

To the gentleman who preferred to pick his brand and then his dealer .... 

Hiya Ryno, how goes it?

Hey, that was no gentleman, that was me. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I know that one size rarely fits all, and that not everyone wants to do his own work; in fact, sometimes it would make very little sense to do so, especially when your time is more valuable to you than the money you'd spend on having your dealer do things like routine maintenace or non-warranty work. And dealing with a**holes is no fun either.

But I just want to gently offer my opinion that regardless of whether or not one does his own maintenance, reliability does come into play as part of the decision-making process when buying a tractor, and thereby somewhat "choosing" a dealer. Some brands are more reliable than others, especially in certain areas. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that that is a fact, not just an opinion.

You specifically mentioned having a problem with your hydro as an example of a situation in which you'd like to have a competent, helpful dealer standing behind you. One of the main reasons I bought a Kubota is that I became convinced that the Kubota hydro is just incredibly reliable. I'd be very surprised to find even a 1% rate of Kubota hydro failure within the warranty period, or even three or four times the warranty period of 24 months/1500 hours (whichever comes first).

Part of life involves calculated risks. I calculated the risk of a Kubota hydro failure as being very, very low, but Kubotas seem to be remarkably reliable in most other departments as well, especially the engine, but also fuel, electrical, hydraulics and any other part of the tractor I could think of.

I hope that what I have said here is not taken as "bashing" other tractor makes. My sole purpose is to say what I think of Kubota reliablity, which is at the heart of why I bought one in the first place, and why dealer support was not high on my list of criteria in deciding what tractor to buy, or from whom I bought it. My intent is not to tell anyone what I think they should do, or that they should feel the same way that I do. As always, just sharing my thoughts.

John

Ryno1 · Jan 26, 2006

Hey CT, nay I didn't take it as bashing, just two opinions, neither right for everyone. Actually I meant hydralics, I have a gear tractor but the principal was the same. I'm just not a great mechanic As for reliable, will any of them can be a lemon (just like Chevy, Ford, Dodge all make a few lemons). I don't have enough hours on the NH to really say much about long term relianblilty - just 90 hours as of today. However, NH is Ford and there's alot of those old 8n still running around. I agree Kubota is probably top of the line right now, followed JD and NH.

I will also say this about the TC30, it ain't beautiful or sexy but the little son of gun will get out there and work!

CT_Tree_Guy · Jan 26, 2006

Hiya Ryno -

Excellent post, thanks. Just wanted you to know that I didn't have you in mind at all when I mentioned "bashing". I'm still smarting a bit from some recent heat I've taken recently for expressing certain opinions in past posts, but that wasn't directed to you at all. (That little episode has been very well resolved amongst most of the parties involved, but I had to sing "Kumbaya" until I strained my vocal cords - feeling much better now). /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

And while I pretty much do "bleed orange", I have a very warm place in my heart for NH's and JD's. Also those tanks known as Kiotis, and the beefy, no-nonsense Mahindra. Don't know enough about many of the other brands, but it's a rare tractor that's a piece of junk, and not capable of doing a heck of a job for a long, long time.

I test-drove a NH TC33 hydro when I was shopping, and I loved it. Very smooth, and it felt like a part of me. And I was this close to getting a JD 5320 until I zeroed in on the 5030. All great tractors. And I can't wait to check out a JD Twenty series. If I were in the market for a cab tractor, it'd probably be mean and green. 

Here's to peace among owners of tractors of all colors, but especially among people of all colors -

John

Passionfortrees · Jan 27, 2006

Hey guys,
In my few days on TBN , I had not idea what I was getting myself into, I must say between CTtreeguy and Ryno and the others as well who have been in touch trying to help out with all their advice and concerns, YOU Guys all have personalities and a hellof a sence of humor that could be quite entertaining ! I got alot more than what I bargained for joing TBN , I must say This is pretty cool! Thanks again Rich.

Passionfortrees · Jan 27, 2006

Hey guys,
In my few days on TBN , I had no idea what I was getting myself into, I must say between CTtreeguy and Ryno and the others as well who have been in touch trying to help out with all their advice and concerns, YOU Guys all have personalities and a hellof a sence of humor that could be quite entertaining ! I got alot more than what I bargained for joing TBN , I must say This is pretty cool! Thanks again Rich.

RedDog · Jan 27, 2006

Speaking of price, I got my 5030 with 853 loader, turfs, HD bucket w/cutting edge and a block heater for $24,950. For what this machine can do, I think that's a bargain. 

What year is your tractor?

RedDog

CT_Tree_Guy · Jan 27, 2006

Hi RedDog -

I got it in April 2004 from Salem (NY) Farm Supply. You raise an interesting point - namely, would they quote me the same price today that they did 20 months ago. Seems to me we've had a steel price hike (or two?) since then, so maybe that price is "history".

They were almost $3,000 cheaper than my local dealer, and I didn't "haggle" with them, I just asked them for their "best price", one shot at selling me a tractor, same as I did with the other 3-4 dealers I contacted.

I think there's a good chance of saving a lot of money on a tractor purchase if you go through a higher-volume dealer, know EXACTLY what you want right down to the block heater, don't ask a lot of questions, and keep the deal as simple as possible for them. In about a 3-minute phone call, I told them I already had a few prices and asked them to fax me a quote; they probably knew where I got the quotes, knew what they had to do to sell me a tractor, and did it. I don't know what they paid for the tractor, but maybe they looked at it as making $700-1,000 for a 3-minute phone call.

Speaking of "haggling", and my general dislike of it (although it does sometimes have its place), I loved this thread: Dealers on this site and cheap customers; great discussion on when to haggle, and when not to. (When to haggle - when you're looking at a used car and the seller is asking $5,000 or best offer, and you think it's worth less than that. When not to haggle - at the grocery store, with your mechanic, or with me, when I just gave you a price on a tree job). /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

John

RedDog · Jan 27, 2006

I figured your tractor had to be newer than mine. I was just doing a little comparison with it to mine since you had the price in there.

RedDog

Passionfortrees · Jan 27, 2006

Hey John , what is the lifting capacity on your 5030? and does it matter what loader is on there? like you have the 853 , different tractors with same horse will work but the loaders are different? Hydraulic system different? what is it with the kubota over another tractor same specs? Other than personal preference? Rich.

Passionfortrees · Jan 27, 2006

And is there anyone who has any experiance with Montana Tractors? Montana Dealers, Performance, pricing anything! I think the desicion is still leaning towards the Montana but not sure now about the 2740 due to the probable lack in power for implements later like the grapple CT Tree has so back to the wallet,bank and drawing board,If I end up spending much more well then I can get any of them, just looking for more info .What size tractor or horse power is enough? for me.

CT_Tree_Guy · Jan 27, 2006

Hi Rich -

Kubota rates its loaders by kilogram, so an 853 loader = (853 kg. x 2.2 lbs./kg = 1,876 lbs). This is really just a rough guideline - lifting capacity is measured in a lot of different ways, and fully understanding some of them, like "breakout force", can turn your brain to mush in a hurry. In general though, an 853 will pick up more than a 723, period. It's pretty safe to say that the 853 will pick up around (853/723 = 18%) more; then again, my 853 has gotten 3,200 lbs. off the ground, so that 18% all of a sudden is 600 extra pounds of lift.

In the Grand L's, the 3130, 3430 and 3830 take the 723 loader; the 4330, 4630 and 5030 take the 853. As far as how many HP you need, and what tractors come with what loaders, and how much they can pick up ...

Considering a human being can put out one-tenth of a horsepower at full exertion, it's not going to take much machine for you to save yourself a lot of back-breaking work. I'd say to look in the 30-50 HP range, but even a 250 cc quad will make your work easier. Try to get a tractor that will let you pick up at least 1,300 - 1,500 lbs. plus an 800-lb. grapple. Maybe any loader that is rated at 1,500 - 1,600 lbs. at bucket center will do that, if all loaders are rated about 50% under like the Kubotas seem to be. Just go online and study the specs until your eyeballs are ready to fall out, see what loaders pick up what, what models they come on, all that good stuff. But as I said, ANYTHING will be better than doing it manually.

The hydraulic system itself doesn't really come into play too much; most tractors seem to have around a 2,500 PSI working pressure, and gallons per minute never struck me as being a really critical statistic. JD's seem to have more flow than Kubotas, but my hydraulics move plenty fast.

You mentioned something interesting: the fact that (good) used tractors tend not to cost a whole lot less than new ones. With a new one, you get exactly what you want, and once you make a modification to it, it's done, for a long, long time. I didn't want to put a lot of time and money into a used tractor, only to get something else down the road. Lots to think about, and lots of ways to skin this cat. I'm sure we'll talk soon in person, and then it'll be settled - after you drive the tree-bota, you'll have no choice but to get one for yourself. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

John

LarryRB · Jan 28, 2006

( Hi Rich -
The hydraulic system itself doesn't really come into play too much; most tractors seem to have around a 2,500 PSI working pressure, and gallons per minute never struck me as being a really critical statistic. JD's seem to have more flow than Kubotas, but my hydraulics move plenty fast.
John )

This isn't totally true, There are instances where GPM is critical. For instance, I have the L 48 TLB, three pumps, approx, 25 GPM combined.. Certain equip will need more oil than others,., It is just your logging operation where hydraulic GPM doesn't seem to be important for your personal uses