Self Defense Ammo do's and don'ts

[RSKY]

She didn't say anything about reloaded ammo in a carry gun but I imagine that is a no-no. What she did not say but I put together was that anything a lawyer could use to infer you were out looking for trouble will get you in trouble. She wasn't talking so much about a criminal trial as a civil suit. A modified weapon will be made to sound like you were modifying it to make it more deadly so you can go out and kill somebody. Killer ammo, yep, he bought that to go out and hunt somebody down. And so on. Open carry, "yes Mr. and Mrs. jury person, this person was out looking for trouble! He was only displaying his weapon to aggravate my client. Since he had it on display and easy to get to he was obviously looking for trouble!" I understood what she was telling me. She said she was a former National Champion is some type of cowboy competition and both her and her husband still shoot in competitions but not as often since they have kids now. Said they had contacts all over the industry from that experience. Most of what she said was just common sense. Sit down and think about being in a confrontation and then having to go in front of a jury that has no idea about guns or ammo. A good lawyer can twist anything around to make it sound like you were out looking for trouble.

I am still looking for a new pistol and having conflicting thoughts about it. I originally was looking for a cheap, cheap, cheap new or used 38 Special to carry while out in the fields or woods. Something to wear while on my little Kioti. A longer barreled revolver loaded with shot shells in the first two and hollow points after that. Looking to defend myself against snakes, dogs, and a funny acting fox that didn't run when I drove toward it this summer. I want something that if I loose it I won't be too upset. Losing my S&W would be very upsetting! Revolvers prices are high. I missed out on a Rock Island 4" they were selling at Rural King for $199.99 NEW. The Hi-Point autos may be how I go. Load a shot shell in the chamber and hollow points after that. Less money than a revolver and if needed I can use it as a hammer. Drop it in the middle of a 40 acre field and I've lost $150, not $400+.

BUT !!!

The young lady pulled out a Glock 43. That is the compact single stack 9mm. It fit my hand perfectly. Weight and balance was perfect. When I told her I had lost the center of vision in my right (dominate) eye she smiled and pulled out another one with a Crimson Trace Laser. I could actually feel the credit card in my pocket squirming, wanting to be used. She pulled out a Ruger LC9 and a S&W compact 9mm. The Glock just fit my hand better. Said she was a Ruger person but that little Glock had been calling to her also. Anyway, I'm headed to a local pawn shop today. Going to find something cheap that will go bang to take to the field.

Earlier this year I bought a Super Commanche 410 single shot for my tractor gun. It served it's purpose BUT, that fox unnerved me. There hasn't been any rabies around here in a while but a fox in a field that stands and watches a tractor driving very close and does not run is extremely unusual to say the least. I want another shot in case I miss with the first.

RSKY

 

[davesl708]

Food for thought.

About a year ago four guys charged into a gun shop here and started shooting. The husband/wife owners started shooting back and hitting several of the criminals. In the gun fight the husband was killed. Now at trial the wounded criminal is claiming self defense. Claiming he had to shoot because the owners started shooting at them.
With our screwy legal system where criminals have all the rights you must be very careful when dealing with the judicial system. Choose your words carefully.

 

[2LaneCruzer]

There are trigger jobs for competition guns with very low trigger pulls. These are not considered safe for carry use. Most gunsmiths will not reduce the trigger pull on a carry gun to less than around 4.5 lbs. Manufacturers like Sig Sauer have services to do this.

The shop owner opinion is unusual and they are not attorneys.

The usual advice when selecting self defense ammo is to find out what the local PD uses and use that.

The Army announced that their next generation handgun will possibly use hollow points, based on FBI data. We are not signatories to any treaty that prohibits this, and most police forces worldwide use expanding bullets. We do conduct legal reviews of rounds. SOCCOM has been using non-FMJ already in rifles and pistols.
http://www.armytimes.com/story/mili...gun-system-solicitation-hollowpoint/29886907/

The Army is usually the lead agency for sidearm purchases as it doesn't make sense to conduct four or five tests and divide up the purchases. There are many special purchase handguns bought in smaller quantities by the services for specialized needs. For example, Army CID use SIGs as a full-size M9 is too big for undercover use. Army aviators used to be issued "Airweight" revolvers. Etc.

I don't want to beat this to death, but you are correct. They aren't attorneys. The thing to remember is (1) whether you end up in court, either civil or criminal, depends first on what the law is in your state and what you did...were you acting within the law? (2) The picture that the prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney paints of you will depend on a lot of things, mostly things that you do. Cut and dried cases usually don't go to court, but the close ones will...if the case is close, do you want to be painted as Billy the Kid or Billy Graham? I had a patrolman tell me one time that they had to watch their recruits; there will always be someone out there they called "Wyatt Earps" who were looking for a chance to kill someone legally, and they really didn't need those kind of folks in law enforcement. I certainly wouldn't want to go in front of a jury looking like a Wyatt Earp.

 

[Garandman]

I agree that anything you do - or say online - is likely to be used against you if you are ever involved in a shooting. Lethal force is truly the "final option" and not something anyone wants on their conscience.

The US did not sign the Hauge (sic) Accord, that banned expanding ammo.

No, we did not sign the 1899 treaty [which banned expanding ammunition] but we did sign 1907 Convention, specifically:

"It is especially forbidden....to employ arms, projectiles or materiel calculated to cause unnecessary suffering."

Although we used flame throwers and Napalm, we stuck to FMJ ammo for most of the century. But in 1985 the JAG issued an opinion that, "Expanding ammunition is legally permissible in counterterrorist operations not involving the engagement of the armed forces of another state." Shooting terrorists at close range with FMJ was a problem for many reasons, including stopping power and penetration through walls.

Army snipers wanted to use the Sierra Match King, which is an "Open tip" design without metal gilding. In 1990 SOCCOM requested a ruling by the JAG on their legality. The Army's General Counsel issued an opinion, endorsed by other service JAG's, that because the design was based on maximum accuracy and not the ability to fragment, it was also legal. They later cleared the use of Black Talon .45ACP for use in the H&K Mark 23 Mod 0 pistol used by SEALs. Special units in the Army were rumored to be using M1911A1's modified by the AMU and also availed themselves, but don't talk about it.

 

[RoyJackson]

I guess those that do reloading are left out?

I'm sure a plaintiff's lawyer would conjure up some really nasty (and untruthful) tales how a reload was pushed to the max pressure. A lawyer looks for the jury's sympathy, not the truth.

 

[davesl708]

I'm sure a plaintiff's lawyer would conjure up some really nasty (and untruthful) tales how a reload was pushed to the max pressure. A lawyer looks for the jury's sympathy, not the truth.

Absolutely correct. The truth is not a factor in a trial. No reward for finding the truth. Only rewarded for getting someone off or a conviction.

 

[davepg1]

Best wisdom I ever got in the event of a self defense shooting as very simple: The ONLY statement you should make to ANYONE is "I was in fear for my life and I want my attorney to be present". That is the only thing you should say. The police who are responding will try to get any details possible from you concerning the incident as that is their job, but memorize that phrase and repeat it every time they ask you a question. Anything you add beyond that phrase may be used against you if the DA has any anti-gun leanings or trying to gain re-election points,

 

[RoyJackson]

Best wisdom I ever got in the event of a self defense shooting as very simple: The ONLY statement you should make to ANYONE is "I was in fear for my life and I want my attorney to be present". That is the only thing you should say. The police who are responding will try to get any details possible from you concerning the incident as that is their job, but memorize that phrase and repeat it every time they ask you a question. Anything you add beyond that phrase may be used against you if the DA has any anti-gun leanings or trying to gain re-election points,

Very good advice!

 

[RSKY]

When I carry, and I have my CCL, I DO NOT want anybody to know I have a weapon on me. I don't want to ever use my weapon, even in self defense. If I am alone I will take my chances and run as fast as my sixty year old legs will take me. I will talk, beg, plead, do anything I can to get out of a confrontation. I don't want to shoot anybody. If by myself I will give you my wallet or my car keys. Neither is worth dying over and any time firearms are involved somebody will potentially die.

On the other hand, threaten my wife, daughters, or one of my little granddaughters and consequences be damned, I will do whatever it takes to protect them. They are the most precious things in the world to me and I will do whatever it takes.

Now for my daily rant. People who open carry in public places are IDIOTS. Plain and simple IDIOTS, IDIOTS, IDIOTS.

Went to the local Wal-Mart this morning and there was a guy in there with a large full size pistol stuck in his belt at his back. Not covered by his shirttail but out in the open where everybody could see it. I worked with this guy for years. I know what he is and what people think of him. People turned their carts around and moved away from him down the aisles. Waiting until he moved on before going down an aisle. People got in line at the checkout behind him and then turned and went to a line backed up five or six places. Nobody wanted to be anywhere around this guy.

Saw a couple guys kinda following him around and I figure they were armed and watching him. But you couldn't tell they were packing.

Now I worked with this guy for several years and he is the type that always has to have everybody looking at him. THAT is the reason he was open carrying. Never mind the Second Amendment, legalities, or whatever. He wanted people to look at him and say 'what a great ballsy guy, he's packing a pistol'. What people were actually thinking and saying as he went by was not very complementary, more like 'who is that idiot and why does he have a pistol in his belt?' People use some common sense!

And I'm pretty sure the guys walking around watching him were not police buy probably armed, concerned citizens with family in the store. They were watching a guy they perceived as a threat to their families.

People like that do more damage in public opinion than all the shootings combined.

Once again what a freaking idiot.

RSKY

 

[ultrarunner]

Concealed Carry is just about impossible to get here in the SF Bay Area and they even publish a short list with names and addresses of those that have the "Privilege"

Open carry was not as restrictive and became sort of a movement... short lived... but it was open because concealed was not possible.