Setting cedar split rail fence posts...

[bandit67]

I'm going to set 6 1/2' cedar hand split fence posts 2' into the ground. Just wondering what the general concensus is - repack the holes with dirt (clay) around the posts or pack the posts in concrete? The two trains of thought are that the posts set in dirt will eventually loosen, but the posts set in concrete will eventually rot because the concrete creates a water pocket that the post rots away in.

So what can I expect to happen sooner - loose posts (the ones set in dirt) or posts breaking due to rot (the ones set in concrete)?

 

[MarkV]

I would consider stone dust which will pack and hold like concrete but allow for drainage. Is 2’ deep enough in your climate to prevent frost heave or for a fence is that not an issue?

MarkV

 

[beenthere]

If something happens to a rail or a post in the fence, it will be easier to 'repair' with a post packed in (gravel or dust better than clay, I think) dirt than one set in concrete. The cedar rails are often a lot of sapwood, and don't last all that long (as compared to cedar heartwood).

 

[bandit67]

Not too worried about frost heave for the fence posts. Plus, we haven't gotten a frost deeper than 12" over the last 13 years. Still build foundations to frost line, but the fence should be fine.

I like the idea of the stone dust. Hafta see if I can track down some of that stuff. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[wroughtn_harv]

A combination of concrete sand and pea gravel will work good too. The principle is the same as with a gravel driveway. You need the fines (sand) to pack in between the pebbles to lock them in place.

I suggest digging your holes about four inches deeper than the post is going into the ground. I think it's important to clean our loose dirt too. The reason for that is during the wet season the loose dirt will compact and allow the post to settle.

By digging a little deeper you get to put your fill under the post too. This is good for drainage and support for the post.

Hope this helps.

 

[Golfgar4]

Here's a new idea for you. I spoke with our Park department superintendent about how they install fences. They do a lot of split rail types because we are The City of Parks . /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

They use all of the methods that have been previously described, but probably 90% of the installations are made with just dirt. They've not had a problem with heaving or rotting. They are using the commercial grade cedar posts, which are a little larger and more expensive. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

They do occassionally use limestone similar to how Harv described, and once in a great while concrete. But those definitely are not their primary methods.

Now for the new one. They had an instance where they found that they needed to, on an occassional and recurring basis, remove part of a fence. Rather than dig the hole again each time, they slipped in a PVC sleeve (basically just a hunk of plumbing PVC pipe) that was as close to the outside diameter of the post as possible. They put the post through a cap and then put the post into the pipe. The cap slips down the post to cover the hole, which also gives it a kind of nice finished look. You'd think that the post would wobble around, but they've not had any problems as this is not used in any kind of structural support situation. They are actually evaluating using this method on some other decorative fences that they have. They believe that the post will last longer than with any other method they have, it saves some labor time, and it's easy to remove and replace if and when needed. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[bandit67]

Well, they call the stone dust, breeze out here. Folks usually use breeze to set flagstone walkways in. Although I don't like it for that use (it makes a mess and requires regular sweeping), I like the idea of using it to fill the gap in the hole after I place the posts, so I think I'll go that route.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

 

[beenthere]

That sounds like a clever idea, and will store it away (hopefully never to be forgotten, and used someday). Sounds like it would work best for round posts and I'm thinking the split rail fence posts may not be round. But, could just pack some sand or dirt in the pipe and tamp it too. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Golfgar4]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Sounds like it would work best for round posts and I'm thinking the split rail fence posts may not be round. But, could just pack some sand or dirt in the pipe and tamp it too. )</font>

That's what I thought too, and I'm sure you're right about the round posts. However, I did specifically ask him if the posts were round or the regular split rail type, and he said the application that he was talking about was the split rail type. He went on to say that you just need to get the PVC pipe that is as close to the widest measurement of the post as you can, and the pipe will fit snugly. He even mentioned that you might need to trim a little off the post.

He definitely said that they do not put any material around the post inside the pipe. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I'm going to be doing some park inspections later in the month, and if I remember, I'll take my camera along a try to snap a few pictures for you. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[EddieWalker]

Hey Golfgar4,

Thats an intersting method you described with the pipe, but my visual isn't comig up with a pleasant looking fence.

I'm sure its just me, and I'm not being critical, just looking looking for new ideas.

Could you possibly post a photo?

Thanks,
Eddie

 

[Golfgar4]

Eddie,

I don't have any pics right now, but as I mentioned earlier, when I do some of the park inspections that I have scheduled for later this month (9/27), I'll try to get a few pictures that I can post.

If I happen to be out and about and get some shots before then, I'll be happy to do that too. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[nigebj]

So, a year later - did you go with the 'breeze' solution - and how did it work out for you ?

I'm about to put a fence up in Arapahoe County, CO and was wondering how you got on. My fence doesn't need the strength or inflexibility of cement all the way around, so I was originally thinking of packing it with drycrete and just cementing gate posts and corners, may be a few in the two long (350 foot plus) runs.

Anything you could add on ownership experience, and if indeed you went with the above solution would be great. BTW, where did you get the 'breeze' from ?

Any thoughts appreciated - thanks

 

[JimMorrissey]

The best luck I've had to to pack the base of the posts with stones (fist size and smaller), then tamp them down to create an extremely firm post. It takes a bit of work to find and manually place the stones, but it gives you the best of both worlds. I'd avoid concrete if I were you. Others think differently, I'm sure.

**The more jagged the rocks are the better so they lock together and bite into the fence post. A few good sized ones at the base will really help hold the post long term. You'll have great drainage too.

 

[forgeblast]

Here in NE PA we have a gravel/"breeze" mix called Modified.
I have used this all around my house, for a base for my driveway and as a base for my paverstone walkway, and i will be using it again for my patio. When i do put in my fence (this summer hopefully) i will use it to set my posts in. I will also use a tamper to pack it. Basically its 2b gravel with dust. It packs great, i have a company near me that delivers 20 ton truck loads and i really make use of them.
Hope that helps
Forgeblast

 

[m1greg]

I used a pea gravel base tamped down with the post and then back filled the hole with dirt. The fence held up well through 2 Michigan winters with no post heaves. I took the fence down to make room for an addition on our house and it came up easily enough using a fel to wobble the posts loose.
Now I just gotta get around to re-installing it again! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[1bush2hog]

I have set split locust fence posts in the ground using only dirt, originally dug out of the hole, to fill and tamp back in. If hole around post is filled and tamped properly, you won't have to worry too much about post moving if you are packing w/clay.

This is a more labor intensive process though and I was younger then too /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[bandit67]

Sorry, I just noticed your recent post.

Yes, I used the breeze, and it packed down great. We actually had to pull a post out and re-dig it, as the original hole was a bit out of line, and I didn't like the way the fence was looking. Getting through that packed breeze less than an hour after putting it in was a surprisingly tough job - I would have figured it would dig out easily. The key is to put the breeze in when it is slightly damp, and pack it after adding about 6" of material. I went out and tried to wiggle some posts last month, and they're all still tight.

FYI, I also used breeze above the 18" deep concrete necklace on my 6x6 posts on my pole barn. So the breeze went from grade down to 24" deep to the top of the concrete necklace, which goes down to the bottom of the post at 42" deep. I submitted that detail to the building dept. for the permit, and they had no problem with it. I also ran the detail by a structural engineer, and he was fine with it.

I got the breeze at Pioneer.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

I've always just used the dirt from the hole. They won't go anywhere. I'm moving a rail fence that is 6-7 yrs old, just took rails down and pulled the posts out of the ground, used the FEL to pull the really tight ones. I did take the suggestion and put one of them in a 4" pvc sleeve, because I might want to be able to remove it to drive thru that section. For a gate post, I did tamp it with stone dust (thats what it's called here). It does pack good, will see how it handles the kids swinging on the far end of the gate.