Shop light advice?

[caylor]

npaden: Thanks for the info on the buzzing, I had el cheapo lights in the shop from the previous owner, and really like the halogens. I visited your web site as I love Lubbock (I went to Tech) and it brought back great memories of the big sky country. I looks like your place might be in/around the Ransom Canyon area....again thanks

 

[texasjohn]

OK, thanks to all for their input and ideas.... current design point is:

using t8 6500kK, 2800 lumens, 85 CRI, 4 ft. bulbs providing 145 pupil lumens/watt bulbs
(see Purchasing Advisor: Indirect Lighting Calculator _ )
and( Lighting: HID Versus Fluorescent for High-Bay Lighting - Upper Peninsula Power Company )

100 Lumen/sq ft at working level is desired for woodwork, then

100/1.45 pupil lumens/.75 dust = 92 foot candles/sq. foot

92 FC/145 LUMENS/WATT = .634 watts needed/sq ft.

40X60 shop size = 2400 sq ft

2400 sq ft * .634 = 1522 watts of bulbs needed

1522/32 watts/bulb = 47 bulbs = 24 fixtures with 2 bulbs in each

Current fixture in top contention is from Home Depot:

$16.97 for a 5ft cord, pull chain, 7 inch reflector, electronic ballast, uses 2 48inch, 32 watt bulbs, chain included, bulbs purchased separately.

Cost is $408 for fixtures plus $3/BULB*48= $144 FOR BULBS = $552 TOTAL.

see ( The Home Depot ) whoops... FOLLOWUP EDIT: the link takes you only to their main web page, not the particular page for the fixture which is Commercial Electric model HBSL-25G

I think I now understand that T8 is more efficient, that getting CRI bulbs is good in my application, pupil lumens are very important reflectors are very important, distributing fixtures around is good to avoid shadows and dark spots as much as possible, and that having a shop light for under cars and extra light is good.

Likely I have missed something and if one of you sees it, be sure to point it out to me. If I need additional light in a particular work area after getting all the above installed, I'll install a metal halide right above the spot.

Again, thanks for all the good input

 

[npaden]

Sounds like a pretty well thought out plan to me. Remember to incorporate the others advice on having the ability to turn on and off banks of lights as needed rather than turning a bunch on or off at once. You could probably go with 4 quadrants of light but 8 would be better!

 

[CurlyDave]

Current fixture in top contention is from Home Depot:

$16.97 for a 5ft cord, pull chain, 7 inch reflector, electronic ballast, uses 2 48inch, 32 watt bulbs, chain included, bulbs purchased separately.

Over the years I have put a number of the Home Depot el cheapo shop flourescents in my garage, and one of the problems is that they seem to last a few years and then fail in a number of annoying ways.

It always seems to be associated with the sockets that the bulbs go into. The contacts and the wiring in the sockets are poor, the mounting of the sockets to the fixture is horrible. Frequently one bulb will need to bumped or jostled in order to come one, and shortly it will be both bulbs.

Others last pretty well, and it is just the luck of the draw.

I think having 24 of these would drive me nuts, although having a plug at the end of a cord is a great feature -- easy replacement.

I would look carefully at the possibility of going up a step or two in fixture quality. Either that or look for a long warranty and save your receipts.

 

[rvaitor]

I'm going to electrify my 40X60 metal shop building. I've looked at all the various types if indoor/outdoor lights available... mercury vapor, metal halide, high pressure sodium, flourescent... etc.

Daytime is plenty bright.... have skylights ... there are three 20 ft bays and one skylight on each side of each bay... 6 total.\

My electrical suppliers (have gotten bids from 2 electrical suppliers and Home Depot... went back and forth and got prices lowered several times) are in the $2000 range for the lights alone... no wire or installation which I will do with assistance from some buddies (final hookup by true electrician). Thus, I want to make sure that I "do it right the first time" if possible.

I just finished putting some more lights in an aircraft hanger. I used a new product from Lights of America - they are called Canopy lights (85 watt) and also the 100 watt Floods by the same company - I've only seen them at Home Depot, but I like them so far. I have 4 100s and 2 85s and they are mount from the rafters.

I have metal halides in another facility but I think the flourescent are a better value and probably less to operate - The MHs will last longer(fixture and bulb). The Flourescents are $49 and $59 each - you might try a couple of those - rated for 20 below. Two year warranty.

I'd be interested if anyone else has or uses these.

 

[Farwell]

Dave,
I purchased one of the HD lights you mentioned, it lasted about 6 months. It started out working intermittently and eventually quit all together. I tried to repair it and did not have any luck. I was planning on buying 16 of them but thought I would try one first. Glad I did. Ended up using the standard 8 footers. They work okay but the ballast buzzing is driving me bonkers. Thinking about trying the 300 watt halogen shop light mentioned in an above post.
Farwell

 

[GaryBDavis]

I’ve been following this thread with some interest because I need to light up my new shop in a major way. So far, I don’t have any lights at all. Here is the breakdown of the shop (multiple rooms with a large overhang – all with bright white interior insulation wrap):

Main Room – 50'x50' with 22’ peak ceiling, 16’ eve height
Store/Work Room – 25'x50' with 22’ peak ceiling, 16’ eve height
Welding Room – 25'x38' with 22’ peak ceiling, 16’ eve height
Overhang – 25’x100’ with 16’ peak ceiling, 14’ eve height

I was planning on going with five Lithonia 96” 110W High Output florescent fixtures with cold weather ballast for the interior hung directly on the ceiling for each bay (25’x50’). For the outside overhang, I want something that will hold off the bugs and spider webs better than florescent fixtures, so I was planning on metal halide low bay sealed fixtures with the quick start pulsers. I just need basic lighting out there, so one per bay (25’x25’).

As an option in the interior rooms, I was kicking around the idea of two high bay metal halide fixtures per bay (25’x50’), again with the quick start pulsers. That would be slightly more expensive, but less lights to hang and wire.

Also, I want quality lights. I learned that lesson in my last shop. No more cheap florescent fixtures for me. Lithonia commercial grade or bust. However, their high bay/low bay metal halides are much more expensive that some of the other brands. You can get some of the other brands from ebay dealers at a good discount, but I’m afraid of the quality.

Any thoughts?

 

[DieselPower]

I have florescent light's in all my garages and pole barns. If you do go with florescent lights buy the best you can get and make sure they have cold start balast. Personally I use what they call "daytime" florescent bulbs. They produce a greater spectrum of light then cool white bulbs do.

 

[wushaw]

I have a 40X50X14ft at eaves shop with 3 4ft flouresent lights running down the center with electronic ballast for general lighting that I use most of the time. I also have six 400 watt low bay metal hydride lights when I need daylight (two per switch)
Here is a pic with the flourescents and four of the metal hydrides on. http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...sk-harrow-901941-homemade-disk-harrow-010.jpg

My electronic flourecents are over four years old now purchased from Lowes.
I didn't want to wait five minutes for warm up time in cool weather.

 

[GaryBDavis]

How long does it take for your metal halide lights to come on and what brand are they?

 

[kmdigital]

A couple of thoughts;

In general, T-8, or electronic ballast lights aren't worth the added cost unless the lights are on at least 15-20 hours per week. They cost about twice what T-12 lights do, and yes, they do save energy, and in an office environment where the lights burn 8+ hours per day they are well worth the extra cost, but it is hard to justify the extra money unless they are used a lot.

Buzzing ballasts is caused by bad or failing ballasts. Replace them with new ballasts, and the noise will go away. There are literally billions of these in offices worldwide, and they wouldn't be used if they were always that noisy.

Use a few incandescent lights for instant lighting for when you just need to run in and out to get something like a tool, etc. All other lights have a shorter lifespan when cycled frequently.

Electronic ballasts light instantly when cold, but magnetic will work once they're warmed up which can take a few minutes if it is say below about 20. Depends on how important this is to you.

Don't use HPS lights indoors, as the color rendering is pretty bad. They make great outdoor lights for general lighting, and they are the most efficient lights available (lumens/watt), but everything has a yellow cast.

I dislike halogen lights, and would never install them again. They cost a fortune to run, generate an extreme amount of heat and the bulbs burn out very frequently and are rather expensive to replace. They do make a lot of bright, white light, but are only good for areas where they are used infrequently due to the relatively short life. For 100 watts or so on a more efficient light, like metal halide or even flourescent you will get a similar light level, at a much lower level of energy usage and heat output.

Remember, watts is strictly a heat output number, and has very little to do with the actual amount of light generated. The more lumens you can get for the watts consumed the more efficient the light is.

I just finished the electrical on my new 40x60 shop last spring. I installed the following lights;

9 -175 watt metal halide, low bay fixtures, on three separate switches wired for 240 volt. I bought these used for $35 each

1 - 400 watt metal halide flood light for lighting the parking/drive way area. I bought it off eBay for around $50 including shipping, and it was brand new.

13 - 2'x4' four 40 watt bulb flourescent lights (used drop ceiling lights with diffuser lens) that I bought used with bulbs for about $4 each. (I still have about 15 more of these as I got a bunch from a building that was being torn down).

4 - 8' two bulb flourescent shop style lights hung lower over the work bench, and above my 20x20 storage area in the one corner of the shop. I got these free when an old warehouse was being remodeled close to where I worked about 16 years ago. Been in my house attic since then.

The above lights are mostly hung on 3/16" steel cable so that they hang level instead of following the slope of the purlins. I used cable because it is easier to work with, and much cheaper then chain. After I priced chain at about $0.35 - $0.45 foot I started researching other options as I needed about 300' total. I bought a 500' roll of cable, 200 crimp connectors and the crimping tool for under $80, and the cable allowed me to hang the lights at the exact height I wanted. And it has about 10 times the load capacity of a light duty chain that would normally be used for hanging lights.

I also have two 60 watt incandescent bulbs installed for quick light. They don't make a great deal of light, but it is plenty to run in and grab a socket wrench or something without turning on another light.

I have LOTS of light if I turn everthing on, which I rarely do. I use the florescents for most things, and turn on the metal halides when I will be working in the shop for a while and need more light for fine detail.

I have about $1,300-$1,500 in everything, including conduit, about a mile of wire, lights and about 50 receps, including 2 welder receps and 2 - 240 volt air compressor receps. I put in a 100 amp service, which I had to run 125 feet from my house. I put the wire in 2" condiut, and I also installed an almost new submeter on the shop since I bought one at an auction for $1 a few years ago. This way I can write off the electricity I use in the shop as business expense (my business leases the shop from me also), which is one way I could justify spending the money putting up a new shop in the first place.

Obviously this means I didn't pay anything for labor for getting everything installed, but during the winter I have time for things like that anyway, and it saved me thousands over paying an electrician to do it. And since I've had an Electrical Contractors license for about 14 years, I knew how to do the work. I am thinking about dropping my license as I haven't used it to pull any permits in over 8 years, and the annual cost of the bond and license seems to go up every few years. I have held on to it for all this time because you never know when you might need it, and I didn't want to take the day long test again, but I probably won't ever use it again so why keep it.....

 

[Dusty]

........(see Purchasing Advisor: Indirect Lighting Calculator _ )
and( Lighting: HID Versus Fluorescent for High-Bay Lighting - Upper Peninsula Power Company )

Thanks for this link..... lots of good information there. Dusty

 

[mudcat]

Electronic ballast have sound ratings. Class A being the lowest noise level.

 

[sweetcloverfarm]

I Have a 40 x 60 shop, with 4 12 foot bays, and 1 12 x 40 work section. With a 12 x 40 lean two.

For the general area lighting I used Tandem T-8 (8 foot long two sections holding 2 4foot lamps) both Lithonia, and Cooper Brand are great, these are mounted down the center at 12' height. For just general lighting these work great, If I wanted more light for those work sections I would just add 2 more eight foot fixture's. The lamps that I would, and have installed are F32T8TL850's this is still affordable, and has great color rendering under it. You should be able to get each of these fixtures (less a reflector) for about 45-50$ per fixture, including the light bulbs. The T8 ballast is rated to 0 degrees, and should not hum, but the lamps are rated optimally for 60 degrees, as it is colder they still light up, but are not as bright till the ballast warms up.

For my work area, (I have lowered the ceiling to 8') I have 4 Tandem T-8's, these give lots of light for the work area, and my storage area for tools. I also have this same amount of lighting in my lean two, a bit dimmer in the winter, but warms up, and even when it is dim, you can still see what you are doing.

In the bay beside my work area, I have also installed two retractable cords for all my portable lights. I have also installed one 6 lamp T-5 Fixture, (only because the price was wright), these are expensive fixtures, and put out a lot of light, bulbs are very expensive as well, with time those prices may come down, but not yet. However this gives great light if I am having to work on a truck or tractor.



Any fixture that is holding a t-12 lamp are being phased out, I believe Lithonia has already discontinued all T-12 fixtures, even the HO's. T-12 light bulbs are still available but their price is starting to go up. Magnetic t-12 ballasts are the ones that hum.

If I had to go higher then 12 ft, say between 15-20 the Metal Halides, either low bay, or high bay would be great, I know you can get the kits for about 100-145, with all but the hook to hang them on, and the cable to hook them up with. If I wanted to work in my shop at night and felt the need for the low/high bay fixture, 2 over a 40 foot run should be bright enough, but l like so many others like LOTS of light, I would probably go with 3 on a 40 foot run with lots of switches.


All the way around the outside of my shop I have 42 watt fluorescent wall packs, these do a great job of area lighting, if somebody is going to break into my shop they are going to be running a great risk of being seen.

I also have a 400 Watt Metal Halide fixture on a 25' pole between my house and the pole barn, If i need to work outside it really puts out the light.

Mercury Vapor and High Pressure Sodium, do put out a light but it is different, if you wanted to be able to tell what color car, or read a licence plate under it you would have a great deal of trouble, as the color rendering is very poor, but with a metal halide, it is much better. (Look at all the mall lighting, all metal halide.)

Hope this helps out a bit.

Bruce

 

[rvaitor]

A couple of thoughts;


9 -175 watt metal halide, low bay fixtures, on three separate switches wired for 240 volt. I bought these used for $35 each

1 - 400 watt metal halide flood light for lighting the parking/drive way area. I bought it off eBay for around $50 including shipping, and it was brand new.

13 - 2'x4' four 40 watt bulb flourescent lights (used drop ceiling lights with diffuser lens) that I bought used with bulbs for about $4 each. (I still have about 15 more of these as I got a bunch from a building that was being torn down).

4 - 8' two bulb flourescent shop style lights hung lower over the work bench, and above my 20x20 storage area in the one corner of the shop. I got these free when an old warehouse was being remodeled close to where I worked about 16 years ago. Been in my house attic since then.

The above lights are mostly hung on 3/16" steel cable so that they hang level instead of following the slope of the purlins. I used cable because it is easier to work with, and much cheaper then chain. After I priced chain at about $0.35 - $0.45 foot I started researching other options as I needed about 300' total. I bought a 500' roll of cable, 200 crimp connectors and the crimping tool for under $80, and the cable allowed me to hang the lights at the exact height I wanted. And it has about 10 times the load capacity of a light duty chain that would normally be used for hanging lights.

.

Great advice - I agree on the metal halides for a shop or Home Depot for that matter and all the other stuff you did - talk about a dream shop - sounds great - I like the clear shades on the metal halides because you get light bouncing off the ceiling. I've got 6 400 watt metal halides(240 also) in a 42x66 building - floors epoxied white - great light. Kept the receipt on the cheap HD 100 florescents - warranty for two years will just convert over if I have trouble between now and then.

 

[npaden]

I disagree that buzzing means that a ballast is about to fail or that it is having problems. Depending on how many bulbs it is running and the type of ballast, some ballasts are just noiser that others. My 400W metal halide ballasts have buzzed since they were new and that has been 5 years. It isn't terribly loud, but you can hear them. The electronic ballasts that I have are so quite you can't tell when they are running.

I've got 4 - 400W Metal Halides with some expensive reflectors and 4 - 110W VHO (Very High Output) flourescent lights over my 10' long 28" wide reef aquarium. Think that is enough light per square foot?

 

[kmdigital]

I disagree that buzzing means that a ballast is about to fail or that it is having problems. Depending on how many bulbs it is running and the type of ballast, some ballasts are just noiser that others. My 400W metal halide ballasts have buzzed since they were new and that has been 5 years. It isn't terribly loud, but you can hear them. The electronic ballasts that I have are so quite you can't tell when they are running.

I don't know about ballasts for metal halides, as I was referring to flourescent light ballasts. These should be quite as they are normally used in offices. Metal halides may naturally be noiser, as these are genarally used in production or storage areas where any minor humming wouldn't be an issue.

 

[rvaitor]

Kept the receipt on the cheap HD 100 florescents - warranty for two years will just convert over if I have trouble between now and then.

Thought I would post some pics of the lights I used last week for anyone interested. First one is on start - 35 degree outside, second is fixture details, third is lights warmed up, fourth is how everything is lit.

 

[Farwell]

Rvaitor,
Tried to find your lights on the Internet and didn't have any luck. I want to get the specs on them and find a supplier for them. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
Farwell

 

[schmism]

from my days in the lighting world i want to say lumen per watt metal hylide was the best.

to me that means they are the cheepest to run given a certian light output requirement.

I use a combination of Metal hylide (for general lighting and 4' florescent fixtures for task (over the bench) lighting).

i still use drop lights for work on the tractor/car. CF versions are vastly suprior to incendsent ones as a reg light bulb seems to last about 5 min in my shop.