Short Run of 'Different' PT-425

toolz_not_toyz · Aug 19, 2004

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

(
"" I would make them take it back. ""

Please provide detailed instructions on how to do this!! )

If they don't want to do it, hire a lawyer. You just need to prove that the design is fundamentally flawed and exposes the user to an unreasonable level of risk. In a way, PT may have already acknowledged the problems with the design because they reverted to a prior design for newer models.

Essentially, what you would want them to do is either exchange (replace) your PT for a newer model or correct the model that you have (repair). A car manufacturer would issue a recall notice citing a potential for an engine compartment fire. I'm sure you've seen or heard about those. Basically, it's up to PT if they want to reduce their exposure to a potential tort action for gross negligence. They can wait for someone's PT to blow up (bad) and potentially injure someone (worse) or they can be proactive and correct the situation. In fact, just acknowledging that there is a problem and offering some way to help (by fixing) or at least warning the consumer of a potential problem would be a wise step on their part.

(
"" I just can't understand what they were thinking when they did this. ""

Maybe that it would be safer than having a large PLASTIC jug of gas under the cover next to the engine and battery!! )

I agree that the a steel fuel tank is better than a plastic fuel tank. But I think the danger would not be less severe with either tank design in the event of an engine compartment fire. We're primarily concerned with the gaseous state (vapor) of the fuel than the liquid. Boiling fuel will probably be accompanied by expansion and vapor and that is what's going to blow up.

(
"" How are they venting the gas tank? ""

It vents when pressure inside builds up. When the engine is shut off hot, you can hear the cap hissing for several minutes. )

While that's an appropriate setup for non-flammable liquids (a radiator full over boiling coolant comes to mind) it may not be appropriate for this application. Clearly, if the cap fails to vent (as it probably did for the original poster) you get into a very dangerous situation when removing the cap to refuel. The fuel tank should be permanently vented.

Another problem with a venting cap and a fuel tank that moves with the engine cover is that fuel could potentially spill out of the closed cap whenever opening the engine cover.

As for the often mentioned tip about not refueling when hot... Well that's great advice for anyone that's got a small job at hand. I go through at least 6 gallons of gas when mowing my lawn now. I'm not willing to interrupt that that chore so I can let my equipment cool down before I refuel. Furthermore, as a machine that's supposed to be approved for commercial use, to me that translates into being able to run it non stop for at least 8 to 10 hours. Not much opportunity to let it cool down for refueling there.

While I agree that there are ways to minimize the risk of an event with these particular machines, it is entirely inappropriate and unacceptable to expose people to this level of risk in the first place. What is really unfortunate is that it would probably only take one law suit for PT to decide to get out of this segment all together. And then where would we all be??

catsco · Aug 19, 2004

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

You wrote:

( Quite honestly, if it was me and I had received this design iteration (which I continue to think is fundamentally stupid) I would make them take it back. It's really just an accident waiting to happen and I just can't understand what they were thinking when they did this. While a heat shield may partially correct the problem it will never fix the fact that fuel can spill onto the hot engine.

Question: How are they venting the gas tank?

)

Thanks for the reply. Although it is not stated in the manual (and there's a LOT that's not /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif) TBN members with this configuration suggest having the cover open when refueling; there is a line below the gas cap opening when the cover is open that indicates a 'full' level, I think.

The gas cap opening is at the FRONT of the fuel tank when the cover is closed, and at the TOP of the fuel tank when the cover is open, so it cannot be overfilled when open, and fuel will not spill with or without the fuel cap on when filled this way.

Unless, of course, it is boiling.

The gas cap is NOT vented; I just spoke with Scott at PT who believes it should be, and will check with Terry and send me a vented cap.

That should end the pressure and boiling issue.

I'm thinking that refueling even when the tractor is very hot might be safer with the steel tank (engine cover open) at the rear so if fuel is spilled, it can't get to the enginer, muffler, or anything that would ignite it. Vapors are also further from hot parts with this configuration.

What do you think?

catsco · Aug 19, 2004

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

PJ--Thanks for the reply. You wrote:

( I have the same model as you and Fourteen.
I have never had a problem fueling for these reasons.
- never fuel with cover up (how would you do this?)
- fuel with funnel
- fill only to 3 inches from top
I have been very surprised regarding comments from others that they have had problems.
)

I do the same as you with no problem, just the one big surprise horizontal geyser (cover open for safety) on a hot day. Wouldn't dream of filling with the cover closed except when totally cold on a trailer at a gas station.

See my reply above regarding venting - - my cap has no pressure relief of venting that I can see. There is therefore a LOT of pressure. If Terry sends a vented cap, that will probably stop the boiling when the pressure is relieved.

Mark H.

FOURTEEN · Aug 19, 2004

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

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You said to PJ: "I do the same as you with no problem".

But you: "Wouldn't dream of filling with the cover closed", and PJ: "- never fuel with cover up (how would you do this?)
- fuel with funnel"!!

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pajoube · Aug 19, 2004

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

Interesting.
I must have a vented cap as I have not seen boiling fuel. As far as fueling with the cover closed I have never done it any other way but then I always use a funnel.
PJ

pajoube · Aug 19, 2004

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

I just went out and checked my fuel system after reading what others are doing. Again, I do not understand how one would fuel with the cover open and get the same amount of fuel in the tank as when fueling with the cover closed. Also, the ease of fueling with the cover closed (and using a funnel) is far greater than trying to fuel at an angle with the cover open.
I looked at all the material from PowerTrac (not much) and found no reference to fueling with the cover open. How did the rest of you come to this method of fueling?
PJ

dsmith3 · Aug 19, 2004

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

When it warmed up this spring, I couldn't figure out where the burned gas smell was coming from. I finally realized that, when really hot, the cap was venting liquid gas onto the top of the tank. Not much, just a little sheen and maybe it was just vapor.

When operating or shutting down, I'll periodically unscrew the cap a little to vent the gas vapor out before it does it on it's own.

I also have learned to fill the gas tank with the cover open.

FOURTEEN · Aug 19, 2004

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

"" hire a lawyer ""

At the hourly rate that lawyers charge, I could buy a new PT with the tank relocated, or replacement parts to revise my PT, a lot cheaper and quicker!!

"" just need to prove that the design is fundamentally flawed ""

Is it?? Most tractors and lawnmowers, new or old, have their fuel tanks located above and adjacent to, or even mounted on, the engine!! Tractors typically, front to rear, are radiator with cap on top, engine with exhaust upward, fuel tank with cap on top, dash, steering wheel, then seat!! I can not remember ever seeing a small rotary lawnmower that didn't have its fuel tank mounted directly to the top side of its engine!!

"" exposes the user to an unreasonable level of risk ""

How is the risk greater with the PT than with the typical tractor, ATV, motorcycle, or lawnmower, most of which have the fuel tank located over the hot engine!!

"" PT may have already acknowledged the problems with the design because they reverted to a prior design for newer models ""

I have seen no such acknowledgement! Designs are constantly being changed for numerous reasons, many having nothing to do with safety!
We do not know the reason for this design change.
However, since creating a fuel tank out of welded plate steel by skilled in-house welders is obviously more costly to PT than just buying an OTC plastic jug, I would not be surprised if the reason was simply economic!

"" exchange (replace) your PT for a newer model ""

A claimed design defect in a minor bolt-on part would not justify receiving a whole new tractor!!

"" warning the consumer of a potential problem would be a wise step on their part ""

The golden rules of tort are:
1) Admit nothing!
2) Deny everything!
3) Make counter accusations!

"" steel fuel tank is better than a plastic fuel tank ""

Actually a stronger case could be made against a plastic tank vented inside the engine compartment than against a steel tank vented to the outside air!

"" vapor and that is what's going to blow up ""

Gasoline vapor must be mixed with air in about a 1/14 ratio to explode. Outside the vapor is continually being disbursed and mixed with large amounts of air. Inside the tank, particularly during refueling, it is full of just vapor, lacking the fuel/air mix to explode. The heavy steel tank in the cover is of such construction that it would most likely remain intact even if a tank explosion did somehow occur! A large flame would shoot upward, followed by a small nearly harmless fire surrounded by steel and supported only by the vapor available to be mixed with air at the tank opening! An explosion, or fire, in the plastic tank would most likely rupture the tank creating a huge fire under the PT!

"" it is entirely inappropriate and unacceptable to expose people to this level of risk in the first place. ""

Having used this model PT-425 for 130 hours, and operated countless other tractors, lawnmowers, ATVs, and motorcycles, I can find no additional risk during refueling if normal standard safety practices are employed!
I highly doubt that Power Trac intended that the owner refuel with the cover open! I do not put my ATV up on its rear wheels and rear rack to fill its tank from the side! I have never seen a motorcycle laying on its side at the gas station while the rider fills the tank from the side rather than from the top!

It would seem that owners are actually putting themselves at greater risk by the unusual practice of raising the cover and fueling from the side!! Just because it can be done, does not mean that it should be done!!
(Note that the dangerous events described by CATSCO in the first post occurred while he was attempting to refuel using the non-standard position of cover up!!)

Perhaps a letter to Power Trac requesting that they specify the correct position of the cover during refueling would be appropriate!!

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Clarke · Aug 20, 2004

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

I agree with Fourteen. I can't imagine fueling a PT with the hood open trying to manage the funnel and gas can. As I said in an earlier post go to the store and get the new fueling nozzle. I have seen them in the box stores as a separate item to add to your existing fuel can.. This way you can throw your funnel away and fuel with the hood closed. With very little care you will not spill even one (1) drop of fuel.

sg

MossRoad · Aug 20, 2004

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

What's so difficult about fueling in either position?

If the hood is down, use a large funnel or the spout you suggest.

If the hood is up, the spout from the fuel can should work just fine by itself, I would think.

Either way, just follow standard safety precautions when handling gasoline, like waiting for the engine to cool a bit, don't smoke, etc... When I got out of high school I worked full time for seven years at two airports re-fueling aircraft with various fuels to put my self through school, so I have probably handled it more than most folks. In all the time that I can recall, in all the equipment that I have fueled, I have never personally known anyone that had a fire, flare up or problem, with the exception of one idiot that worked for me who attempted to check the fuel level in a 350 gallon tanker with a lighter(yes, just like in the cartoons, it lit up. He wasn't injured and even got a fire extinguisher and put it out). I've fueled just about everything that flies, and, like the rest of you have, I regularly re-fuel cars, trucks, lawn mowers, chain saws and tractors to name just a few. Yes, fuel has to be handled with extreme care. We all do it every day. Every year we read a few stories of people involved in fuel accidents. But in the big picture, if you follow proper safety precautions, the chances are pretty good that you will be OK.

So, to return to the original question of this thread, I would be a little annoyed that the tractor purchased was not the tractor pictured. And the design was changed a bit. Some for the better, some for reasons we will never know, but for the worse, I haven't seen that. The fuel spraying out of the cap is unacceptable. We all know that Power Trac is not known for keeping it's website completely up to date with their current production. And we all know that Power Trac documentation is lacking. It does miff me a bit, but I knew this before I purchased. My research led me to believe the product is a great concept and the company is constantly trying to improve it. It also inicated the machine would do what I needed to do and so far it has(Last night I leveled and graded my children's school ball diamond in about 45 minutes).

In conclusion, I believe in the Power Trac products. I believe they are truly trying to improve the products on a regular basis. I believe they have taken care of my needs when I call them. I believe they could do a better job of documentation. I believe they could do a better job of quality control and testing new designs. With any product, it's in our best interest to fully research before purchase. If the documentation doesn't match the product delivered, that is not right in my mind and they need to step up and keep the documentation current. Off my soapbox now. Thanks for letting me vent(no pun intended). /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif