Sick of "what oil do i use " debates

schmalts · Jun 29, 2004

Sick of \"what oil do i use \" debates

There has been lots of debate on this and other tractor boards about what to put in the tranny and axle of a chinese tractor. I have been watching these guy spout off with no education of lubricants at all, and some guys believe the person they bought the tractor from with the mindset that "hey, he is a dealer he must know all" Well i can tell you this, if anyone tells you to put a motor oil in your tranny or front axle dont blame anyone but yourself when it fails.
yes its true that 40 and 50w motor oil is close to gear oil in means of viscosity, but they are not formulated at all the same.
Gear lube is formulated for just what its named for, and motor oil likewise. Gear oil is for low speed, low temp, high shear force application with an additive pack for just that.
Motor oil is for high speed, high temp, low shear force applications and has an add pack for that.
Some dealers use the motor oil and my guess is because they dont know **** about lubricants and just do what the chinamen told them in the manual. And the chinaman said that because the average chinese farmer does not have the luxury of the high quality lubricants we do.
I hope this will get to some of the owners to help them from whiping out there front axles. And instead of posting a relpy about how you disagree, go find a real lubrication expert (one that has a job in lubrication formulation and testing) and ask him what you should use, its not rocket science. Gear lube is gear lube for a reason, open up your tranny and front axle and see whats in there for componants, and then make a obvious guess at what to use. Schmalts

Soundguy · Jun 29, 2004

Re: Sick of \"what oil do i use \" debates

I agree.. but want to add one thing.

In general terms.. we look to the manufacturer for the specifications of the lubricant to use for a particular application. That's usually 'safe' procedure. However in the case where the dealer / manufacturer is recomending an inferior product for 'whatever' reason.. that pretty much puts the onus on the end user.

I had/saw the same discussion in the yanmar forum. Lots of tractors were coming over with ATF in the tranny/rear end. I asked about the tranny fluid in the rear end, and was told:
" No problem,.. the exporter say that is what they use..."

Well.. I've never seen a domestic tractor.. or really anything that uses ATF in the final drive... There was also discussion that the exporter put the chepest fluid in possible before shipping. My guess is that is closer to target.. just 'any'thing to keep the gears wet while at sea...

As for the blanket statement of letting a person who works in the lube industry tell me what to use.. Probably not going to happen for anything that I have that is still under warranty. Some of our big cat equipment specs 30w or 40w motor oil for the trannies... and that yellow iron is too expensive to go against manufacturers recomendation and risk the warranty.

Soundguy

SPIKER · Jun 29, 2004

Re: Sick of \"what oil do i use \" debates

I agree with soundguy:

my ford truck has atf in the gear transmition and does not even have a replacement schedual! just keep it full type of thing. (yes it is a mazda transmittion version where as the ford ver has a replacement setup.) as for the tractors they are what they are. if you are in COLD area I would like to see some one shifting they trans with 20 degree temp and 140 oil! hard to do not only that but someone posted a while back that he filled up trans with 90/140 and the fluid did not flow into the creeper section due to the fact it has to FLOW through a bearing... this meant he drove around with out any lube on his creeper gears for xxx hrs... not sure of the post but it was either here or on the NYCTOA site.

mark M /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

schmalts · Jun 29, 2004

Re: Sick of \"what oil do i use \" debates

Some vehicles use lighter fluids and ATF for climate reasons. ATF is also formulated for gear and clutch use. Some munufatures used ATF purely for milage reasons. One other thing is they are also very high speed gear mesh applications and require less shear force protection.
Keep in mind the speed in what your tractor front axle and rear axle turns with those big tires compared to your cars and trucks. The faster you spin gears the less you need high shear type lube. On a tractor with huge rear wheels the rear differental axle is turning very slow with very high pressure on the gear teeth when working. Your truck sees this kind of work very rarely only for short periods of time.
Its all about formulation.
On a different note, your truck also has gears that are probably finish ground for a much smoother surface. they need to do that for passing noise emmision testing and keep the customers happy with a nice quite tranny. Also they have a lot of helical cut and ground gears that also makes a better setup. The smoother finish needs less lub protection. Did you ever look at a jinma trans or diff gear tooth? looks like crap. In fact i saw some warrenty gears on a front axle of a 354 and they were cast or forged and didnt even have a cut or ground gear tooth! trust me, that needs gear lube on those!
Bottom line is a rough cut straight gear is way different than a finish ground, sometimes helical.

Wannafish · Jun 29, 2004

Re: Sick of \"what oil do i use \" debates

..."Some vehicles use lighter fluids and ATF for climate reasons."

I would think the use of lighter fluid in your tractor would be dangerous... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Junkman · Jun 29, 2004

Re: Sick of \"what oil do i use \" debates

Two comments............

First.... this should have been posted in the Lubrication Forum so more people could get involved in the discussion........

Second... I am not going to respond because this one is too hot of a subject and my comments would get it shut down for certain. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Possibly another day in another life time..... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif This fish knows when not to take the bait.... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Soundguy · Jun 29, 2004

Re: Sick of \"what oil do i use \" debates

( Bottom line is a rough cut straight gear is way different than a finish ground, sometimes helical)

Spur gears are also noisier than helical gearsets.

But back to the point.. Like I was saying.. I didn't feel like ATF was good for just that reason.. slow moving high shear force work... that needs a lube package rated for ep/final drives.. etc.

We are talking tractors here.. not cars.. in case anyone was confused.

Soundguy

schmalts · Jun 29, 2004

Re: Sick of \"what oil do i use \" debates

Soundguy, true that it seems to be a bad choice but think about the statement about slow speed gears. Compared to a tractor your truck gears are flying! not only does your tractor have large tires it rarely ever sees over 5mph
Add the fact they may be helical, and are surely finish ground that gives a little tolerance for lighter fluid.
The guys running motor oil in the transmission is probably fine but the axle and rear end needs gear lube. But since a lot of tractors share tranny and rear diff lube that should be given the gear lube as well.
I dont understand the other coment one made about cold weather ATF use?? Its because car and truck owners would be more inclined to gripe about a slightly stickier shifting in cold weather than a tractor owner, so they use ATF in some applications as long as the gearbox will allow. ATF also will give a noticable milage difference on lower HP vehicles.
You wouldnt believe how much time was shaved off a land speed record motorcycle just by us filling a primary gear case with ATF over gear oil. (btw, we hold the land speed record for that class so I know that for fact)

greg_g · Jun 29, 2004

Re: Sick of \"what oil do i use \" debates

( since a lot of tractors share tranny and rear diff lube that should be given the gear lube as well)
Only if you don't need hydraulics in cold weather. In the case of single pump loops, don't count on steering either.

For the record, I use 85W140 in the front diff, AW32 for steering, 15W40 in the crankcase, 80W90 in the tranny, and AW32 for the rest of the hydraulics. I take particular care to select non-foaming products only. At my next fluid change, I'm switching to Spirax HD in the front diff and tranny. And I'm giving serious thought to going synthetic in the crankcase/steering/hydraulics.

//greg//

schmalts · Jun 29, 2004

Re: Sick of \"what oil do i use \" debates

( ( since a lot of tractors share tranny and rear diff lube that should be given the gear lube as well)
Only if you don't need hydraulics in cold weather. In the case of single pump loops, don't count on steering either.)

What tractor shares diff and hydrolic fluid?? not a jinma