Silt Happens!
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JimMorrissey
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Jim,
An excavator would rather easily dig the pond to the depth you want in less time than a bulldozer and with deeper side walls if you want it quickly falling off. A quick depth gives you more time before you see it start to dry up. Another aspect of the excavator is that the spoil pile could be moved a pretty long way away from the pond edge after it was dug out. He'd relay the piles. It would be much easier for you to clean up after he leaves for the day.
Personally I think this is a perfect job for you to do with a rental excavator. What fun and nothing to destroy in the area. You'd get good at the controls pretty quickly. The rental for two days would be about what it cost to have a guy come for one day. You can do a lot of work with a good sized excavator in two full days. Get a big one and go nuts /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
An excavator would rather easily dig the pond to the depth you want in less time than a bulldozer and with deeper side walls if you want it quickly falling off. A quick depth gives you more time before you see it start to dry up. Another aspect of the excavator is that the spoil pile could be moved a pretty long way away from the pond edge after it was dug out. He'd relay the piles. It would be much easier for you to clean up after he leaves for the day.
Personally I think this is a perfect job for you to do with a rental excavator. What fun and nothing to destroy in the area. You'd get good at the controls pretty quickly. The rental for two days would be about what it cost to have a guy come for one day. You can do a lot of work with a good sized excavator in two full days. Get a big one and go nuts /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
gmsssi
Platinum Member
Sorry but I disagree. You can make the bank steep enough and be safe with the dozer and the escavator will require multiple handlings. The pond is too broad an expanse to make it worth while. The dozer can contour the spoil much better than the escavator while its removed. Just my opinion!
MMM
Platinum Member
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( You all in Texas sure have a strange definition of "pond"./quote]
It's a universal definition- A hole in the ground you fill with water and lots of money.
It's a universal definition- A hole in the ground you fill with water and lots of money.
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jinman
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( is it the angle or is that tractor dangerously close to an edge that looks as though there is no bottom..............? )</font>
Danny, I'm not sure which picture you are talking about, but the one with me down in the hole is a little deceptive. The tractor is sitting on relatively firm native soil. I know it's the native soil because I found a pile of burned wood in the bottom. It's been sealed like a time capsule below 6 feet of silt for the last 65 years. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
During this whole project, I kept my ROPS up and my seatbelt on. There are just too many ways to make a mistake to not take every precaution. Probably the most danger came when I was up on top of the pile of spoil. It's actually a much wider pile than it looks like and I let it dry for a week before driving up there to start another tier.
Danny, I'm not sure which picture you are talking about, but the one with me down in the hole is a little deceptive. The tractor is sitting on relatively firm native soil. I know it's the native soil because I found a pile of burned wood in the bottom. It's been sealed like a time capsule below 6 feet of silt for the last 65 years. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
During this whole project, I kept my ROPS up and my seatbelt on. There are just too many ways to make a mistake to not take every precaution. Probably the most danger came when I was up on top of the pile of spoil. It's actually a much wider pile than it looks like and I let it dry for a week before driving up there to start another tier.
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jinman
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( An excavator would rather easily dig the pond to the depth you want in less time than a bulldozer and with deeper side walls if you want it quickly falling off. )</font>
Jim, you make a good point. I'd go for the excavator, but the nearest one I can rent is about 60 miles away. By the time I pay for two-way transport and the rental fee, I can hire a local guy.
My "dozer" guy talked to me tonight. He strongly suggested that I not use a dozer for wet silt. He has a track loader with a 3-yard bucket. He thinks he can do the job in one day. He only lives a few miles from me. He's coming out Saturday to look the job over and hopefully get it done next week.
I think the track loader is probably the the best compromise between the dozer and an excavator. He can scoop out a huge amount and transport it the short distance to the spoils area. I can then transport small loads to the hundreds of places I need fill.
I don't want to cut my edge much more than about a 3' vertical wall. I can't afford cave offs and any loss of material in the dam. The outer dam wall goes by two ponds and is about 600 feet long with a soil conservation lake on the other side. So I need it to be very substantial. The inner wall could be cut down some and I think the track loader will be able to do that. This cleanout will easily double the amount of water the pond will hold. I think it will make it through very long dry seasons since it will be so deep and not have anymore exposed surface area than it does now.
I'm starting to get excited about having this done. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Jim, you make a good point. I'd go for the excavator, but the nearest one I can rent is about 60 miles away. By the time I pay for two-way transport and the rental fee, I can hire a local guy.
My "dozer" guy talked to me tonight. He strongly suggested that I not use a dozer for wet silt. He has a track loader with a 3-yard bucket. He thinks he can do the job in one day. He only lives a few miles from me. He's coming out Saturday to look the job over and hopefully get it done next week.
I think the track loader is probably the the best compromise between the dozer and an excavator. He can scoop out a huge amount and transport it the short distance to the spoils area. I can then transport small loads to the hundreds of places I need fill.
I don't want to cut my edge much more than about a 3' vertical wall. I can't afford cave offs and any loss of material in the dam. The outer dam wall goes by two ponds and is about 600 feet long with a soil conservation lake on the other side. So I need it to be very substantial. The inner wall could be cut down some and I think the track loader will be able to do that. This cleanout will easily double the amount of water the pond will hold. I think it will make it through very long dry seasons since it will be so deep and not have anymore exposed surface area than it does now.
I'm starting to get excited about having this done. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
nobaddays
Member
jinman. be careful about making your vertical edges to steep. if anyone were to fall in, you would want them to be able to crawl out. there are ordinances about this angle in many places. have fun. jc
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jinman
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Here's one more photo that I didn't post earlier. It shows the area where I'm putting the silt. I'll have the loader operator put the spoils to the right of my pile and up into the little valley behind that if necessary. I also may build up around the base of the slope on the right, but if I do I'll have to cut a ditch so water won't come down the hillside and wash the silt right back into the pond. Having watched the way water flows through here for the last 10 years gives me a good idea of what will work and what won't.
What does everyone think? Should I take out the trees on the little peninsula where the tractor is in this picture? I'm sure it would be easier to take them out and replant later. I just haven't made up my mind. The two willows in front have a lot of beaver damage and look pretty miserable anyway. There is one large tree that is dead behind them and will have to come out anyhow. Most of the others are persimmon trees and a single cedar juniper. I'd love to have a nice pecan tree here.
What does everyone think? Should I take out the trees on the little peninsula where the tractor is in this picture? I'm sure it would be easier to take them out and replant later. I just haven't made up my mind. The two willows in front have a lot of beaver damage and look pretty miserable anyway. There is one large tree that is dead behind them and will have to come out anyhow. Most of the others are persimmon trees and a single cedar juniper. I'd love to have a nice pecan tree here.
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mikim
Veteran Member
Jim - Looking at this pic - isn't this the valley between the house & the picnic area? Why did you pick there for the spoils? Easy access to be sure ... I was just thinkin' the area toward the beaver dam - but staying closer to the pond so it all doesn't end up in the lake -could use some filling......... course I've only been there once so ...... there i goes thinkin' agin..... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
JimMorrissey
Veteran Member
If they're damaged and in the way, get rid of them. So many people keep damaged and useless (trash) trees just for the sake of a "tree". --Not saying those trees are "trash" /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif If these were your only three trees you might want to think twice, but it looks like you've got plenty all over the property. **They'll likely die in a couple of years anyway from soil compaction and lack of oxygen from the soils pile. Rope off any quality trees you have and forbid the machines from driving over or placing spoil near the base. A size the covers about the size of the trees crown is good, the "drip line".
BB_TX
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Since they are not "prize" trees anyway, I think I would take them out. Then when all the dirt work is finished, have someone come in with tree spade and move one or more good trees from some other part of your property to that point. Between yours and Kathy's places, you should have lots of choices.
JimMorrissey
Veteran Member
I wasn't thinking the walls of the pond should be vertical. I was just thinking they should be steeper than a dozer could make them. Sounds like the 3 yard machine will be excellent at digging the pond out. It will also be able to place the spoil where it's wanted (not along the sides of the pond).
gmsssi
Platinum Member
Geat compromise Jinman and I totally agree with Jim on this one... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif !
PineRidge
Super Member
<font color="blue"> Sorry but I disagree. You can make the bank steep enough and be safe with the dozer and the excavator will require multiple handlings. The pond is too broad an expanse to make it worth while. The dozer can contour the spoil much better than the escavator while its removed. Just my opinion! </font>
I gotta agree with Greg especially after watching the pond being excavated on our property and helping the neighbor excavate his own. Jim a dozer with the hydrostatic transmission is a blast to operate and it's sure to get the job done much quicker than your 45D. The neighbor has quite a large pond (he uses a jet ski on it) and he rented a dozer for a month which was enough time to get his finished up. And everybody that came by while it was being excavated got an opportunity to operate the dozer, (what a blast). /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
I gotta agree with Greg especially after watching the pond being excavated on our property and helping the neighbor excavate his own. Jim a dozer with the hydrostatic transmission is a blast to operate and it's sure to get the job done much quicker than your 45D. The neighbor has quite a large pond (he uses a jet ski on it) and he rented a dozer for a month which was enough time to get his finished up. And everybody that came by while it was being excavated got an opportunity to operate the dozer, (what a blast). /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
LBrown59
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<font color="blue"> Here's a shot of my biggest pile of dirt. I have several others. </font>
All that dirt and it's clear out there not here.
O the shame of it all.
All that dirt and it's clear out there not here.
O the shame of it all.
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jinman
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( was just thinkin' the area toward the beaver dam - but staying closer to the pond so it all doesn't end up in the lake -could use some filling )</font>
The problem with getting anywhere near the beaver dam is a two part problem. That's pretty far for tracked equipment to haul spoil and it gets under about two feet of water once or twice per year. When we have a heavy rain, all the water off of highway 287 just west of Sunset comes flowing down the little creek and into the lake. Sometimes the water gets 4 feet deep over the beaver dam and sandbar. I hope to do something with that one day, but it will take some coordination with the county and my neighbors. Keeping the spoils close to the pond will reduce the dozer time. Most of the water coming down the valley stays on the house side. I need to build up my roadway around the valley end of the pond at least four feet. That location will also give me access to the spoils to spread on top of the sugar sand when I dig out my other ponds. I'll keep a grass covered channel about 12 feet wide to carry the runoff so the silt won't get carried right back to the pond. I also am planning on hauling in lots of rocks from Kathy's place to use as rip-rap in areas prone to erosion.
At least that's the way I have it planned. Mother Nature may bend me over her knee and "spank" me for thinkin' I can outsmart her. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
The problem with getting anywhere near the beaver dam is a two part problem. That's pretty far for tracked equipment to haul spoil and it gets under about two feet of water once or twice per year. When we have a heavy rain, all the water off of highway 287 just west of Sunset comes flowing down the little creek and into the lake. Sometimes the water gets 4 feet deep over the beaver dam and sandbar. I hope to do something with that one day, but it will take some coordination with the county and my neighbors. Keeping the spoils close to the pond will reduce the dozer time. Most of the water coming down the valley stays on the house side. I need to build up my roadway around the valley end of the pond at least four feet. That location will also give me access to the spoils to spread on top of the sugar sand when I dig out my other ponds. I'll keep a grass covered channel about 12 feet wide to carry the runoff so the silt won't get carried right back to the pond. I also am planning on hauling in lots of rocks from Kathy's place to use as rip-rap in areas prone to erosion.
At least that's the way I have it planned. Mother Nature may bend me over her knee and "spank" me for thinkin' I can outsmart her. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
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jinman
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Bill and Jim, I think you are in agreement with what I'm thinking about these trees. I need to get them out to make this project easier and also they aren't what I want there anyway. With the trees gone the little peninsula can be built up easily and provide a nice area to be landscaped and turned into a picnic and fishing area. My wife said only the possums and armadillos would be disappointed because the persimmons will be gone. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
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jinman
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Jim a dozer with the hydrostatic transmission is a blast to operate and it's sure to get the job done much quicker than your 45D. The neighbor has quite a large pond (he uses a jet ski on it) and he rented a dozer for a month which was enough time to get his finished up. And everybody that came by while it was being excavated got an opportunity to operate the dozer, (what a blast). )</font>
A month! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I'm worried that I won't have a week before we'll get a shower that will half fill the pond. Of course, I've been saying that for the last two months... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Anyway, I have plenty of new ponds/lakes to put in and before that's over I plan to get a wide variety of equipment operation experience. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
A month! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I'm worried that I won't have a week before we'll get a shower that will half fill the pond. Of course, I've been saying that for the last two months... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Anyway, I have plenty of new ponds/lakes to put in and before that's over I plan to get a wide variety of equipment operation experience. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
JimMorrissey
Veteran Member
Pine,
I gotta figure it depends on the soils as well. 12' of muck might be the end all for a dozer....trying to push that slop when it gets down deep could be problematic, especially if the machine runs belly high. Most ponds around here they excavate with trackhoe and then contour with dozer once their down to stable soils.
Sounds like Jim's got a good plan right now. Looking forward to seeing some pics while the action is happening.
I gotta figure it depends on the soils as well. 12' of muck might be the end all for a dozer....trying to push that slop when it gets down deep could be problematic, especially if the machine runs belly high. Most ponds around here they excavate with trackhoe and then contour with dozer once their down to stable soils.
Sounds like Jim's got a good plan right now. Looking forward to seeing some pics while the action is happening.
EastTexFrank
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You guys have got it all wrong. You have got to remember that this is Texas. Down here a 200' x 150' "pond" is usually called a puddle. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Jim, I think you have come up with the best idea. We had one of the ponds at the farm dug out last year. The guy used a track hoe with an arm that must have been at least 50' long and the biggest bucket I have ever seen. He came, dug it out and was gone in a day. He offered to come back in a week and smoothe out the diggings with a dozer but being cheap, I told him that I'd do it with the farm tractor. Me, being me, I didn't get round to it for at least a month and that stuff had set up like concrete on the outside while still being sloppy, slippy, soft on the inside. It was a real chore to dig it, move it, dump it and smoothe it. In the end, I ended up using 2 tractors, one with FEL and boxblade and the other with the disc. It took me almost a week working about half a day at a time to get it finished and looking half pretty.
You have lots of fun in store.
By the way, the guy three farms up decided to use a dozer to clean out his pond this year. It broke through the crust and sank. I was told that it took another 2 dozers and a lot of huffing and puffing to get it out. I wish that I'd seen it and taken some photos. All I saw was the quagmire that was left after they had got it out. So, be careful out there.
Jim, I think you have come up with the best idea. We had one of the ponds at the farm dug out last year. The guy used a track hoe with an arm that must have been at least 50' long and the biggest bucket I have ever seen. He came, dug it out and was gone in a day. He offered to come back in a week and smoothe out the diggings with a dozer but being cheap, I told him that I'd do it with the farm tractor. Me, being me, I didn't get round to it for at least a month and that stuff had set up like concrete on the outside while still being sloppy, slippy, soft on the inside. It was a real chore to dig it, move it, dump it and smoothe it. In the end, I ended up using 2 tractors, one with FEL and boxblade and the other with the disc. It took me almost a week working about half a day at a time to get it finished and looking half pretty.
You have lots of fun in store.
By the way, the guy three farms up decided to use a dozer to clean out his pond this year. It broke through the crust and sank. I was told that it took another 2 dozers and a lot of huffing and puffing to get it out. I wish that I'd seen it and taken some photos. All I saw was the quagmire that was left after they had got it out. So, be careful out there.
