Skid steer snow blower on tractor loader?

[leonz]

Hello everyone, I’ve found this a really interesting and thought provoking thread. I’ve been battling this winter’s snow with a walk behind snow blower and finally decided I’ve had enough. When it’s time only a foot it’s ok, just takes about 90 minutes do do a tidy job on the track down the hill to the road. But, as usual, we got the three days of horizontal snow and then it gets tiresome. 5 hours on the snowblower isn’t fun anymore!!
So the wife finally suggested we spend the money and get one for the tractor (result!!). But, as others have noted, advancing years and turning backwards to reverse don’t go well together. So, front mounting. But, although there is a mid pto, I rather like the fel route. Which means a 3ph mounted hydraulic pump to power it.
So to the questions. The Erskine models are not available here in central Europe, and I don’t quite understand why they are so expensive, relative to what seems to be prices for the parts. Am I missing something?
Also, the Erskine oil tank seems to stick out from the rear of the tractor rather a long way. Doesn’t it get in the way when manoeuvring in tight spaces? After all there’s quite a bit sticking out the front already. I was thinking that, if I put one together, I could make the tank higher, wider and reduce the back projection. Any issues?
Also a few of you have mentioned the pig of attaching the pump to the pto. I already know this delight, as I have a back actor with the same joy. I have been thinking of putting QDs on the hoses from the pump, so that you can do it without the machine being in the way. Thoughts??
Thanks in anticipation
Andrew

Good afternoon Andy,

Well, now that you have pried open the mouth of the Sabre Tooth Tiger.

No, you are not missing much as they are expensive as it takes a lot to build a
hydraulic system with an independent oil reservoir.
If a smaller reservoir is used a very a large oil cooler may also be used BECAUSE
a huge amount of heat is created and must be dissipated as the reservoirs are smaller
and creating heat in a hydraulic means the oil will become thinner.

The oil tank power packs were designed to be used with the three point hitch
in a lower position or set at ground level to power stationary hydraulically driven
attachments like a feed mill or wood splitter to allow easier backing and in a mobile
application for a clear rear line of sight through a cabin window or over the shoulder
while backing.

These implements require a high flow hydraulic pump of 35 gallons per minute to work
somewhat well to spin the hydraulic driven gear motor for the impeller and the cross auger.

The hydraulic pump is attached with a PTO shaft adapter to the gear pump and the 540 PTO shaft.
The hydraulic pump is either bolted in place to a mounting frame that is attached to the oil tank
or restrained with a length of chain to arrest the torque created when the PTO shaft is actuated and
begins spinning counterclockwise.

Gear pumps are used because they cost less money, a hydraulic vane pump is more efficient and is
easier to have repaired as it will only require a new vane cartridge and seals as a rule if a case drain
is used to lubricate the pump shaft seal which is always the preferred method to extend the pump seals
life.

1
====================================================================================


I am going to suggest that you invest in a RAMMY single stage snow thrower and
a SSQA quick attach plate to mount it on the loader arms as this would be the least
costly way to do this as the RAMMY single stage snow blower is belt driven and has the
least number of parts to worry about being the V belts versus the typical 2 stage snow blower

As you have/are blessed with 220 volt power you will be able to start it with no issues
as it has an electric starter as well as a recoil starter.

The other major reason I am suggesting the RAMMY unit to you is because it is correctly designed.
By this I mean the snow blower rotor is sized correctly for the snow throwers engine as the snow
blower rotor is smaller in size and will spin up to 650-700 RPM to provide the torque needed to
get rid of the white crap.

The RAMMY single stage snow blower has 4 paddles welded to the center of the snow blower rotor
at 90 degree angles around the circumference of the steel tube that is the snow blower rotor shaft
to lift and throw the snow up and out of the chute and spout quickly with the V belt drive systems
available torque.

The closed auger system of a single stage snow blower makes use of narrow width auger flighting with
auger flights that are shorter in height welded to the solid steel auger tube to which the flights are welded.

The RAMMY single stage unit is wider than what you are using now and has wings welded to the side
weldments in its design to increase its snow gathering ability.

Once you make the first pass you can take half cuts and throw the snow further away where possible.

You will spend less money investing in a RAMMY single stage unit and a SSQA mounting plate for it.

Having an SSQA/skid steer quick attach plate will let you keep the ability to remove the snow thrower
and mount the bucket without beating the pins out of it every time to change it.

If you have any questions please send me a PM.

leonz


2

 

[Andy12]

I considered building the PTO power pack myself, and might have tried if I hadn't found this used package. But in hind sight I'm glad I didn't. The tank alone would be a lot of work to build with multiple ports, a sight gauge, fill port and strainer, and return filter. Plus the mounting brackets for the 3PH. The mounting brackets on the Erskine unit can also accept rear suitcase weights which I gather is needed with some tractors to counteract the weight of the snow blower. I also discovered while repairing my pump that the PTO reduction gear plus pumps is quite an expensive part at around $3000 for the package. The replacement pump was along was $850. So I doubt you would save much money, but if availability forces you to build your own, then you do what you need to do.

The whole rig is long, but I haven't found the power pack to be a problem so far. You need to be aware of it, but I think the biggest issue is backing into a snow bank and bending the stand legs. I leave the legs in their down position for convenience, and you could gain some ground clearance if you raised them up.

Going wider with the tank is certainly an option an d would reduce the length of the rig. But I think there is a trade off when it comes to mounting the pump. So let's talk about installation and removal of the pump first.

I actually don't find the pump too bad to install. I would guess mine weighs 30-50lbs. Definitely not 80 lbs, but it appears that Erskine is now using a different pump/gear package that is heavier than mine. I have found a few things that ease handling it.

- I installed a length of chain to the pump, plus a hook, and a bolt centered on the chain. The hook let's me hang the pump from the top link pin when the power pack is removed from the tractor. Without it, the pump will be dragging on the floor. And the bolt acts as a T-handle that I can use to more easily lift and move the pump around to install/remove. The picture below shows this, but doesn't include the t-handle bolt.

- When installing the pump, I pull the draw bar out as far as possible. I can then hook the pump over it and use it to take the weight of the pump as I get it worked into position. Then once in position, it's one short lift to get it onto the PTO shaft. Then I slide the draw bar into it's final position and pin it. Removal is the reverse.

- I install the pump with the tank generally in the right position, but pulled back and turned off to one side a bit. This gives good access to the PTO while still having the tank close enough so the hoses can reach. The trick is to have the tank on a dolly of some sort so you can wheel it around.

I don't think quick connects will be practical for the pump. The suction line is 1-1/2" hose, so it would be a very big quick connect. I would also be concerned about any added flow restriction on the suction line. On the pressure line, you could use a quick connect (it's a 3/4" line), but with the added danger of a blow out if the coupler ever became disconnected since there would no longer be a pressure relief valve in action. Personally, I wouldn't do it.

Now getting back to the tank shape, you could certainly play around with that. I think I'd go up before I'd go wider, just so it doesn't encroach on the space needed to install and remove the pump.

Another thing to pay a bunch of attention to are the relative displacements and ratios of the blower motors and the pump + step-up gear. At PTO speed, the flow needs to result in the auger and fan operating at sufficient speed to throw the snow far enough. I have no idea what the required speeds are, but you can probably infer it from the various motor and pump sizes used in the Erskine product. Or if you buy a different skid steer blower, look at the required flow rate. I'd target the upper quartile of the flow range. From that you can figure out a pump size for the PTO, taking the step-up gearing into consideration.

Good luck, and keep us posted on how you make out.

Hayden, many thanks for that comprehensive answer! Lots to think about there... Your points on the QDs are good ones.
One of the machines I've narrowed it down to gives 40l/m for oil flow rate (just over 10.5 US gallons/min). Can't find the relevant pressure for that figure - yet. That's in the small end of the flow rates I've seen referred to here, but it's only 1.6m wide (5'3"). The PTO is a 540/1000 revs one, so theoretically, I think, I could run a smaller pump using the higher PTO revs. However, my hydraulic knowledge is limited, but basic physics seems to imply that something gets lost here, and I think that thing might be torque. Or would that be only if I ran the PTO at 1000 with the engine revs lower?? Also, having had a quick search, all the gear/pump set ups I've seen so far have referenced 540rpm, and in view of your earlier posts on your first pump having died, doubling the speed seems a tad reckless. Hmm, lots to consider!

 

[Andy12]

Good afternoon Andy,

Well, now that you have pried open the mouth of the Sabre Tooth Tiger.

No, you are not missing much as they are expensive as it takes a lot to build a
hydraulic system with an independent oil reservoir.
If a smaller reservoir is used a very a large oil cooler may also be used BECAUSE
a huge amount of heat is created and must be dissipated as the reservoirs are smaller
and creating heat in a hydraulic means the oil will become thinner.

The oil tank power packs were designed to be used with the three point hitch
in a lower position or set at ground level to power stationary hydraulically driven
attachments like a feed mill or wood splitter to allow easier backing and in a mobile
application for a clear rear line of sight through a cabin window or over the shoulder
while backing.

These implements require a high flow hydraulic pump of 35 gallons per minute to work
somewhat well to spin the hydraulic driven gear motor for the impeller and the cross auger.

The hydraulic pump is attached with a PTO shaft adapter to the gear pump and the 540 PTO shaft.
The hydraulic pump is either bolted in place to a mounting frame that is attached to the oil tank
or restrained with a length of chain to arrest the torque created when the PTO shaft is actuated and
begins spinning counterclockwise.

Gear pumps are used because they cost less money, a hydraulic vane pump is more efficient and is
easier to have repaired as it will only require a new vane cartridge and seals as a rule if a case drain
is used to lubricate the pump shaft seal which is always the preferred method to extend the pump seals
life.

1
====================================================================================


I am going to suggest that you invest in a RAMMY single stage snow thrower and
a SSQA quick attach plate to mount it on the loader arms as this would be the least
costly way to do this as the RAMMY single stage snow blower is belt driven and has the
least number of parts to worry about being the V belts versus the typical 2 stage snow blower

As you have/are blessed with 220 volt power you will be able to start it with no issues
as it has an electric starter as well as a recoil starter.

The other major reason I am suggesting the RAMMY unit to you is because it is correctly designed.
By this I mean the snow blower rotor is sized correctly for the snow throwers engine as the snow
blower rotor is smaller in size and will spin up to 650-700 RPM to provide the torque needed to
get rid of the white crap.

The RAMMY single stage snow blower has 4 paddles welded to the center of the snow blower rotor
at 90 degree angles around the circumference of the steel tube that is the snow blower rotor shaft
to lift and throw the snow up and out of the chute and spout quickly with the V belt drive systems
available torque.

The closed auger system of a single stage snow blower makes use of narrow width auger flighting with
auger flights that are shorter in height welded to the solid steel auger tube to which the flights are welded.

The RAMMY single stage unit is wider than what you are using now and has wings welded to the side
weldments in its design to increase its snow gathering ability.

Once you make the first pass you can take half cuts and throw the snow further away where possible.

You will spend less money investing in a RAMMY single stage unit and a SSQA mounting plate for it.

Having an SSQA/skid steer quick attach plate will let you keep the ability to remove the snow thrower
and mount the bucket without beating the pins out of it every time to change it.

If you have any questions please send me a PM.

leonz


2

Many thanks for that, Leonz, as I've never heard of Rammy before. Luckily, they have a dealer near here, so I can have a look, if they have one. Major issue is the width, as I'm looking for 1.6m ideally, ie 100mm either side of the tractor.

 

[leonz]

ANDY, you can add steel plate to the wings to a make the snow thrower 1.6 meters wide.

BUT the new 155 model would be a better fit for you with wings added to it.



The little beast in the picture is thier standard 1.4 meter wide unit so adding gathering width is not an issue.

They use thick steel so you can bolt wings to it like the fellow that did this with his unit.

The V belt drive is protected with a full cover and only exposed for belt changes or greasing the bearings.

It is simplicity in its design and requires little care.

You will be able to bolt caster wheels to angle iron and bolt the angle iron to the wing extensions to prevent it from digging
into gravel or sod.

It is also light enough that it will let your loader cut into thick/dense deep snowpack using the loader

 

[hayden]

I too think that the 1.55m largest Rammy will be too small. I think 100mm overhang on both sides is a minimum, and 200mm would be better. Otherwise anytime you turn you will be dragging snow back into your cut path.

And I would be very concerned that a self-powered unit would be under powered. A snow blower consumes a lot of power if you are going through any depth of snow. Rammy only specifies the torque for the engine, not the hp or kw power available. And not engine rpm so you can't calculate it. But I doubt it's more than 25 hp or so. And I wouldn't get a single stage blower under any circumstances.

I would go back to a rear mount blower before I would get a smaller self-powered unit.

Is your Kioti CK35 at 35hp machine? If so, I think you will need all that power, and even the losses from a hydraulic system might be too much. Maybe someone knows what the typical losses are, but from the tid-bits I have gathered, it seems to be in the 15% to 25% range. I think that's the big down side to a hydraulically powered blower.

 

[leonz]

Hello hayden,

Fluid power from heat losses can range from 25-40 percent and the cooling system has to be able to handle that.
That is why you see oil cooling radiators on these smaller units.

I grew up using single stage belt driven snow blowers on original IHC Cub Cadet, Simplicity and Wheel Horse garden tractors. The single stage snow blowers they had overpowered the snow we had to deal with thier 12 horsepower engines and V belt drives.

Aa I described earlier the solid flight smaller diameter auger on the RAMMY units is correctly sized for the task versus the mk martin single stage units that have a 16?, inch solid auger with honda gx390 engine.

For the money he would have to spend on

1. hydraulic powerpack complete with tank mounted pump
a. short PTO shaft
b. pump to pto shaft adapter coupling
2. high flow 35 gallon per minute hydraulic drive 2 stage snow blower
a. 2 pairs of male/female hose fitting adapters for snow blower
b. one pair of male/female connection fittings for snow blower
c. replacement BSP o-rings for hydraulic motor mounted adapter fittings
3. two no. 12 or 16 hydraulic hoses 25 feet long
4. control valve
5. hydraulic fittings for flow and return hoses
6. one 25 foot long no. 6 case drain hose
7. case drain hose fittings
a. spare case drain BSP o-ring fittings
8. loom clamps for pressure and return flow hoses and case drain hose
9. labor cost for installation and testing by dealer
10. 4 chute rotation and spout control hoses for chute and spout controls

The chute can be rotated with a hydraulic cylinder using a cam arm or roller chain
The chute can be rotated using a hydraulic motor and roller chain.
The spout can be controlled with a hydraulic cylinder or manually adjusted with a cam arm
arm and pin adjustment.

(British standard pipe o-rings/blue dot marking)

There is a lot to consider but the simplicity of the 155 professional unit and mounting it on a SSQA plate makes it simpler still with just splicing additional low voltage control cable for the snow thrower.

He could buy 2 of the RAMMY 155 being 155 centimeters/61 inches) wide professional units and bolt them together with the provided rubber wings to have the power of a 310 MM 122+ inches making a 10' 2" inch wide single stage snow thrower by having some welding done to create a mounting frame to attach them to an SSQA mounting plate for his loader for fewer EUROS.

 

[Andy12]

I too think that the 1.55m largest Rammy will be too small. I think 100mm overhang on both sides is a minimum, and 200mm would be better. Otherwise anytime you turn you will be dragging snow back into your cut path.

And I would be very concerned that a self-powered unit would be under powered. A snow blower consumes a lot of power if you are going through any depth of snow. Rammy only specifies the torque for the engine, not the hp or kw power available. And not engine rpm so you can't calculate it. But I doubt it's more than 25 hp or so. And I wouldn't get a single stage blower under any circumstances.

I would go back to a rear mount blower before I would get a smaller self-powered unit.

Is your Kioti CK35 at 35hp machine? If so, I think you will need all that power, and even the losses from a hydraulic system might be too much. Maybe someone knows what the typical losses are, but from the tid-bits I have gathered, it seems to be in the 15% to 25% range. I think that's the big down side to a hydraulically powered blower.

Thanks Hayden. Yes, I've had a look at some videos on line by Rammy (and others) and I have to say that I have some concerns. They show them doing ok on new snow at about 6" max. But we need considerably more than that.
Your point on the 35hp is well made. I too have seen estimated losses averaging at 20%. Which is why I don't want to go too greedy on the width. I don't mind slowing to a bare crawl, as long as it does the job of clearing.
BTW, your points earlier on cost... well I've done a bit more searching and don't really understand why your pump was so expensive? (To me, anyway). I can get what looks like a decent gear/pump combo (54l/min) Galtech Hydraulic PTO Gearbox with Group 2 Pump, Aluminium | eBay plus 75l tank with filter, breather etc for about $700 delivered, although there will be duty to pay as well. What spec should I be looking for?

PS I did try casually raising the idea of a bigger tractor, but it felt like it could snow in the room at any moment...

 

[Andy12]

ANDY, you can add steel plate to the wings to a make the snow thrower 1.6 meters wide.

BUT the new 155 model would be a better fit for you with wings added to it.



The little beast in the picture is thier standard 1.4 meter wide unit so adding gathering width is not an issue.

They use thick steel so you can bolt wings to it like the fellow that did this with his unit.

The V belt drive is protected with a full cover and only exposed for belt changes or greasing the bearings.

It is simplicity in its design and requires little care.

You will be able to bolt caster wheels to angle iron and bolt the angle iron to the wing extensions to prevent it from digging
into gravel or sod.

It is also light enough that it will let your loader cut into thick/dense deep snowpack using the loader

Thanks Leonz. I'll have to see if they have one there. They don't mention it on their website. (It's a shame but I often get referred to supposed local dealers from manufacturers abroad and it ends up just a dead end.)

 

[hayden]

Thanks Hayden. Yes, I've had a look at some videos on line by Rammy (and others) and I have to say that I have some concerns. They show them doing ok on new snow at about 6" max. But we need considerably more than that.
Your point on the 35hp is well made. I too have seen estimated losses averaging at 20%. Which is why I don't want to go too greedy on the width. I don't mind slowing to a bare crawl, as long as it does the job of clearing.
BTW, your points earlier on cost... well I've done a bit more searching and don't really understand why your pump was so expensive? (To me, anyway). I can get what looks like a decent gear/pump combo (54l/min) Galtech Hydraulic PTO Gearbox with Group 2 Pump, Aluminium | eBay plus 75l tank with filter, breather etc for about $700 delivered, although there will be duty to pay as well. What spec should I be looking for?

PS I did try casually raising the idea of a bigger tractor, but it felt like it could snow in the room at any moment...

That pump is only 95 bar. The blowers typically want 210 bar (3000 psi) or higher. You could run at 95 bar, but will have less than half the power. When I was hunting around there were lots of lower flow and/or lower pressure gear boxes and pumps available for good prices. But higher flows at 3000 psi seemed to put things into a different category.

That said, I was surprised to see how expensive the Eaton step-up gear was. But I tracked down the newer gear that Erskine uses and it seemed to be similarly priced.

If you want to run at a lower pressure, you could. You will just need double the flow, so larger displacement pump and motors on the blower. That will give equivalent power.

 

[hayden]

Thanks Leonz. I'll have to see if they have one there. They don't mention it on their website. (It's a shame but I often get referred to supposed local dealers from manufacturers abroad and it ends up just a dead end.)

I found that for Erskine too. They said I needed to buy thorough a dealer if I wanted the replacement pump from them. I called four or more dealers listed on Erskine's web site, half of whom didn't even know they were dealers, and the other half who were not active dealers. Only one ever came back with a price on the replacement pump.