Slow hydraulics in winter

[grsr3]

Have a Kama Ts254. Used it this winter to remove snow (near Phila. Pa.). Hydraulics were veeery slow---but got the job done. They are not really fast even in the warm weather---but OK. What can I do about this----change pump??? Or is it the cylinder size---not knowledgeable about hydraulics.
Thanks, George

 

[greg_g]

If it's just the loader that's slow, cylinder size is in many cases related to speed. But if the TPH and steering are slow/hard also, you might just need to go to thinner fluid. Do the hydraulics start to respond faster after the tractor's been run for a while? Or are they slow all the time?

//greg//

 

[grsr3]

Hi Greg,
Thanks for the reply. Yes it's just the loader that's slow, and it does get slightly
better after it warms up---but not much better----still very slow. I'm not really satisfied with it even in warm weather and would like it to move quicker. What could I do????
Geo.

 

[JerryG]

Hello George,
Changing cylinders is a trade off.
Smaller cylinders will decrease the amount that the loader can lift, but will increase the speed.
Larger cylinders will increase the amount that the loader can lift, but will slow it down.
Do you know what the GPM is on your tractor? Do you know the cylinder diameter that you have now?

 

[RonMar]

Also what hydraulic oil do you have in it now and what size are the fittings/hoses in the loader valve and out to the cylinders. Heck, what loader do you have on the tractor. It could be that the plumbing isn't sized right or perhaps restrictions(restricted orfices) have been added to the system to slow down the loader action for a tractor with a higher GPM flow rate and are too restrictive for a tractor with around a 7GPM max flow.

 

[DieselPower]

If the loader is properly sized to the system and it's just a matter of the fluid being to thick you could switch to a winter UTF. In cold weather it will flow better and should help speed things up a little.

 

[bluechip]

The TS254C can be ordered with different sized pumps. the 306 is standard, we have been using 314 or even 316 pumps. The last two numbers of the pump is the flow rating in ml per rev. on the KAMA the pump runs at engine speed. so 6ml x 2200 rpm is 13200ml or 12 litres per minute ( 3.5gpm). This is not enough for a loader and was intended to power the lift box only. the steering is separate pump. We stock 314 and 316 pumps for this tractor if you discover yours is a 306. It will help when we know what loader you are using, and just so we are sure we are talking realistic expectations, how long does it take to rasie the loader from the ground to full height (after the oil is warm)?

 

[Soundguy]

The last two numbers of the pump is the flow rating in ml per rev. on the KAMA the pump runs at engine speed. so 6ml x 2200 rpm is 13200ml or 12 litres per minute ( 3.5gpm). This is not enough for a loader

You 'new tractor' guys sure are funny ( spoiled )... 3.5gpm not enough for a loader?

Look at this baby.. A 1-arm loader. I got a couple of them.. one on a ford 660 one on a ford 850.. both from 1955. These loaders can break out 3000# and lift 1200# to full height. They were designed to run on 2.85 gpm to 4gpm systems.

Soundguy

 

[bluechip]

Well .... maybe if you have more than one cylinder to move, 3.5 gallons is not really enough.... that is.. for quick and efficient use of a loader. Wonder why the one arm loader idea never caught on. I had an old ford 960 with a loader, you had to pull a rope to get the bucket to dump. It was quick and didn't need any hydraulics for dumping!

 

[Soundguy]

This one actually has hyd dump.. though I like the trip dump scheme too. It was actually way cheaper to setup a trip dump loader as you could simply chain the rear lift arms down, and then run a hose from the pressure test port on either the hyd cover or the pump base and then hook that right to the lift cyl.. and just use your tractor's 3pt control for lift, then just pull the line for trip dump... no extra 200-600$ valve to purchase. On the full hyd loaders like this one.. you needed a dual spool on the hyd cover.. or a seperate pump on the crank (stinger) and spool setup. Dual spools run about 600$... but you get to keep using hte 3pt. That's how i set mine up.

All the laoder frame is on one side... very easy to get on / off the tractor with no loader frame in the way. These 1 arm jobs, as I posted.. had excelent specs.. especially considering the front axle design of the tractors. They were made to be mated/unmated in 15 minutes if you used the front pump kit as it just bolted on to a carrier in the front, and you parked under a tree, unbolted the pump, threw a line over a limb.. and put a jack stand ( included ) down under the now, and then pulled 2 pins and 1 more botl.. and the laoder was off.. cut wheels hard and back away in a spiral-ish pattern.

This laoder ( 711 / 722 ) was designed to fit the fords from 1939 thru 1964, and then they modified the attachment box ( and later retro'd the bracket set so either would work ).. and then the loader fit the 65-75 2000-4000 series including some of the fordsons.

Not sure why they never caught on. i've sene 1 arm designs on other tractors before..like a farmall cub.

My guess is people may have thought they were weak? All i can say is i lift more with my 1-arm job then lots of the tube frame loaders that were made for N front axle can lift.. They made a variety of attachments.. dirt bucket, snow bucket, maneur bucket with extra capacity dirt plate and maneur forks, as well as a front dozer blade.

Soundguy

 

[SHIFTY]

Id agree about the fluid,That will have the most effect with temperature change

 

[grsr3]

Thanks for replies. Will try to answer everyone here. The loader is a "Koyker 160". The "Operation Manual" lists the pump as a 306. As far as "RonMar's" question about the plumbing and restrictions I can only say that everything looks to be original factory stuff. The fluid I'm using is as follows:


"COASTAL MULTITRAC"-Tractor Fluid-made for the following-

Allis Chalmers-PF-821XL
Allison-C-3, C-4
Caterpillar-TO-2
Denison-HF-O
Deutz-HTF
Ford Tractor-M2C41-B, M2C48-B, M2C53-C, M2C77-A, M2C86-B, ESN-M2C134, M2C134-B & C & D.
International Harvester-Hytran-Spec B-6
J I Case/D. Brown-JIC-143, 144, 145, 185, MS1204, 1205, 1206, 1210THC
John Deere-J20A(Hygard), J20C, J14B, J14C, J21A, 303, Quatro
Kubota
Mas'ey Ferguson-M-1110, M1127, M1129, M1135, Permatran, PermatranIII
Oliver-Type 55
and others......................

The manual calls for No. 20/30/40 diesel engine oil GB5323-85 (depending on the air temperature). Nobody seems to know what that is around here so I went with the Coastal. The Coastal seems to work the same as the original---which I believe was changed by the previous owner from the factory stuff. Had to add it last summer when I lost a bunch out the overflow/breather-----corrected that problem with the pipe/hose extension idea. It takes about 13 seconds to raise to full height with nothing in the bucket----is that fast/slow???? Of course in the winter it took twice as long.
Will post some pics as soon as I find out why my "upload photos" button doesn't work. Also, do the larger pumps give more speed, more lifting power
or exactly what is the benefit??
George

 

[greg_g]

Thanks for replies. Will try to answer everyone here. The loader is a "Koyker 160". The "Operation Manual" lists the pump as a 306. As far as "RonMar's" question about the plumbing and restrictions I can only say that everything looks to be original factory stuff. The fluid I'm using is as follows:
"COASTAL MULTITRAC"-

Ok. The fluid is problem #1. That's UTF, and your tractor is NOT made to use UTF. It's too thin for the gears, too thick for the hydraulics. Drain/flush/refill the hydraulic sump with AW32. Careful there too - AW32 hydraulic fluid, not AW32 machine oil, R&O, or anything like that. Drain/flush/refill gear boxes and differentials with 80W90 or 85W140 - whichever is more suited for your temperature extremes. I'm in western Kentucky for example. I'm shifting to 85W140 because July and August have proved too hot here to run 80W90 in my KAMA gear boxes.

Problem #2 - as Chip identified - is the pump capacity. Get a bigger pump - it's a direct replacement. Bolts right in where the other came out.

Problem #3 - the Koyker 160 can be had with 1.25" cylinders, or with 2.00" cylinders. The larger are stronger, but slower. If yours are 2", there's another part of your "slow'

//greg//

 

[grsr3]

Thanks Greg,
Just went out and measured the chrome piston rods on the loader cylinders and found all to 1". Also called the local Tractor Supply store and they said they had AW ISO 46 and AW ISO 68. They never heard of a straight AW32. Would it be the same as an AW ISO 32?? They carry a brand called "Mystic", but nothing with the "32" after the AW. I'm guessing you just left out the ISO part, and that AW32 is AW ISO 32. I'll have to call around to find it.
George

 

[grsr3]

Found this cross reference chart on the net. It didn't come thru in chart format but if you go to the link you will see it. Does this look like a good cross reference chart to you????? Severson Oil Company
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Hydraulic Oils

Hydraulic Oil Cross Reference
Disclaimer: See below before using this cross-reference chart.

Conoco

Mobil

Shell

Chevron

Exxon

Texaco


Super
Hydraulic
MV 32 SAE5W20

Hydraulic Oil 13
DTE 12M
DTE 13M
DTE 23

Tellus T 32

AW Hydraulic
HD 32

Humble Hydraulic 1193
Univis J-26
Univis N 32

Rando HDZ 32


Super
Hydraulic 32 SAE10W,ISO32

Hydraulic AW32
Hydraulic Oil Light
DTE 24
ETNA 24

AW Hydraulic 32
Tellus 25
Tellus 32
Tellus 927
Tellus Plus 22

AW Hydraulic Oil 32
AW Machine Oil 32
Rykon Oil AW 32
Rykon Oil 32

Humble Hydraulic 1193
Humble Hydraulic H32
Humble Hydraulic M32
Nuto H44

Rando HD 32


Super
Hydraulic 46 SAE10W,ISO46

DTE25
ETNA 25
Hydraulic Oil AW 46
Hydraulic Oil Medium
Hydrex AW46
NS46
Vacrex 46

AW Hydraulic 46
MD Hydraulic Oil AW 46
Tellus 29
Tellus 46
Tellus 929
Tellus Plus 46

AW Hydraulic Oil 46
AW Machine Oil 46
EP Industrial Oil 46X
EP Machine Oil 11
Hydraulic Oil AW 46
Rykon Oil AW 46

Humble Hydraulic 1194
Humble Hydraulic H 46
Humble Hydraulic M46
Nuto H46
Nuto H48

Rando HD 46


Super
Hydraulic 68 SAE20,ISO68

Hydraulic Oil AW 68
Hydraulic Oil Heavy Medium
DTE 26
ETNA 26

AW Hydraulic 68
Tellus 33
Tellus 68
Tellus 933
Tellus Plus 68

AW Hydraulic Oil 68
AW Machine Oil 68
EP Machine Oil 68
EP Machine Oil 70

Humble Hydraulic 1197
Humble Hydraulic H68
Nuto H54
Nuto H68

Rando HD 68


Ecoterra 32 SAE10,ISO32

DTE Excel 32

Tellus S 32

Clarity Hydraulic AW 32

Terrastic EP 32

Rando Hd Ashless


PowerTran

Infilrex 499
Mobilfluid 300
Mobilfluid 350

Donax T-4
Donax TD


Tractor Hydraulic Fluid
1000 THF
|All Weather THF

Hydraul 550
Torque Fluid 56

TDH Oil
TDH Special
TDH-W

This document was prepared using the most up-to-date reference information available.
Although most of these products are interchangeable in most applications, the best product recommendation is achieved from a thorough review of the equipment and understanding of the application. Severson Oil makes no representation or warranty, expressed or implied, concerning the accuracy of the information contained herein, and disclaims any and all liability relating to or resulting from sole use of this cross-reference guide and its interpretations.

SAE-Society of Automotive Engineers

ISO-International Standards Organization




©Copyright 2006, Severson Oil Company

 

[greg_g]

Just went out and measured the chrome piston rods on the loader cylinders and found all to 1".

No,. Measure the black part.

Would it be the same as an AW ISO 32??

That's the problem with minimum wage hire in a farm store. The number is the viscosity indicator, higher is thicker. ISO is the international standard designator, AW is the American standard designator. In the end - they both mean the same thing. AW/ISO32 has a viscosity equivalent roughly equivalent to 10W engine oil, 46 is a thin 20W, 68 is a thick 20W, 100 about 30W, and so on. But the designator can in some cases apply to either hydraulic fluid or machine oil. Make sure of what you're buying.

Where do you live anyway? AW32 is typically appropriate for Chinese tractor hydraulics in cold to moderate climates. AW46/68 is more for warm to hot climates, or for folks who only use their Chinese tractors in the summer time.

//greg//

 

[RonMar]

The rod diameter is only a factor in how strong the cylinder is. It is the tube/piston diameter that determines the available force(and required volume). A 1" rod probably means you have a 1 1/2" cylinder as in my experience a 2" cylinder will usually have a larger rod 1 1/8"-1 1/4".

A larger pump will not effect the available force as it is the pressure of the fluid(times the surface area in sq/in of the piston faces) that determines the force applied by the cylinders to the loader structure to perform work. The available pumps will all supply about the same pressure. The larger pump will flow a higher volume of fluid(GPM) which will fill the cylinder volume faster and increase the no-load speed of the lift arms and bucket dump.

As for fluids, Check your local autoparts stores(checker/shucks/cragen, Napa ect). If you are in a rural area, they probably have AW32 hydraulic fluid on the shelf. Both these chains have this on the shelf in my area. Here is a link to the parts america(shucks) website that shows the 5 gallon pail of Valvoline AW-32 for $39.
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductList.aspx?CategoryCode=3455&SearchFor=Hydraulic+Fluid

Drain the system, refill it with new AW-32. The ammount of fluid contained in the cylinders, plumbing, pump and valve are probably about 25-30% of the total volume. This will give you a roughly 70-30 mix of old and new fluid. If the oil; you are taking out is in good shape, this probably won't be a problem. A second change after running it for a bit and repeatedly cycling the loader/steering will get the precentage of old oil down to well below 10%. Some recomend flushing(running and cycling hydraulics) with kerosene between old and new oil. This will leave you with a 70-30 mix of kero and new oil. The characteristics of kerosene(particularly when the oil warms up with heavy use) are such that it will evaporate its way out of the system so if you do this, you will need to keep an eye on the hyd oil level and make up the difference with new oil as the kero evaporates. I actually did both, flushed with kero after removing the chinese fliuids and did 2 new oil changes to get most of the kero out of the system from the start. I only had to make up a little bit of oil over time.

 

[greg_g]

Drain the system, refill it with new AW-32. The ammount of fluid contained in the cylinders, plumbing, pump and valve are probably about 25-30% of the total volume. This will give you a roughly 70-30 mix of old and new fluid. If the oil; you are taking out is in good shape, this probably won't be a problem.

Personally, I'd flush, especially if there's no record of it ever having been done. Don't believe I'd want old UTF mixed with my new AW32. And if you flush properly - which includes purging the cylinders - there should be no meaningful kero residuals to worry about.

//greg//

 

[grsr3]

HI Guys,
Good job. I'm following you all the way. Live about 35 miles NE of Phila. Pa. Can get to 90+ in the summer and 10- in the winter. Only used loader once this winter to move out the last snowfall. Sure don't use it enough to justify changing fluid twice a year. Found ISO32 right around my corner at the local Pep Boys auto store----$29.95 for 5 gallons. Went to the "Koyker" website, found my loader----and some surprises. I have the bigger ( 5 foot ) bucket, and unfortunately, the smaller cylinders ( 1 3/4" ). Standard cylinders are 2", the optionals are 1 3/4". The specs show that the 1/4" difference accounts for almost 1,000 lbs. breakout force at ground level---amazing. The specs also say the rated flow is 8 gpm and max. press. 2200 psi. The raise time is 5 seconds----I tried my raise and it's more like 13 seconds----looks like it needs Viagra (hahaha). Guess I should be looking for a bigger pump. Not sure about pumps. Would a bigger pump put additional strain on the hoses and other plumbing---do they need to be upgraded, or not?? Also planning to add a hoe someday ----probably around a 7' footer. Should I get a pump based on the probable flow rate needed for the future hoe. My first job is to change the fluid. Will flush with kero, or can I use the "red" diesel fuel I use in the engine. It's a little cheaper. Also, what to do with 4+ gallons of UTF???
Thanks again, George

 

[Frankm]

any NAPA Sells the AW-32, i have that in my tractor and mine is still slow when its cold , run it 10 min. and it works fine, but i am near Erie Pa,on the Pa NY Line, it gets below o hear often, in the winter.