small scale hydroelectric power

[TWINKLE_TOES]

wasabi,

Take a look at "Motors as Generators for Micro-Hydro Power" by Nigel Smith. He shows how to use low cost highly reliable induction motors as generators. The induction motor has no windings, diodes or slip rings on its rotor, solid cast bars replace the normal windings. In the 10KW to 25KW range the cost of the induction motor is minimal. A Pelton wheel driving an induction motor runs for years with little maintenance. The book is available on Amazon or I can loan you my copy. Also here is a pretty clever overshoot wheel <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.homepower.com/download2.htm#Hydro>Hydro Power</A>
Al

 

[wasabi]

TT, I previously read the article cited and printed and saved it in my growing notebook. Great stuff! Also, oddly enough, previously bought (from amazon) and read parts of Smith's book on using induction motors....VERY pithy stuff, that.

Concur on the Pelton wheel approach.

Thanks for the conveniently supplying the timely Home Power link....I was just about to do a search to find it.....now, instead, I'll glean additional data from the PDF articles there!

 

[MossRoad]

Sounds like fun!

Have you found any information on your states rules regarding running the meter backwards?

Here's a link to the Homepower web page.<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.homepower.com/> http://www.homepower.com/ </A> It has some interesting reading regarding home made power. I don't advocate their enthusiasm for illegally putting power on the grid, but their technology makes for interesting reading.

 

[mbsil]

I'm a regular reader of HomePower.com and have bought all of the back issues on CD ROM. With the water flow you're describing I think you can run your entire house from hydro-electric power and have energy to spare.

There is a case study of 4 families in Scotland that get ALL of their power from a $200 industrial electric motor tied to a (Pelton? Peltier?) wheel in a creek.

Each home has a battery bank and the motor (generator) recharges each battery bank when it gets low.

The key is the CONSTANT supply from the creek's flow.

The battery banks act as a buffer (capacitor) to ensure smooth, steady output when your surge demand exceeds the generators output.

I plan on solar and wind generation for my new home and am considering hydro as well. I have an Artesian Spring which I intend to harness to make electricity AND fill a pond AND irrigate my gardens. God gives us all the free, non-polluting energy we want, we need only harness it.

 

[dmccarty]

wasabi,

The bell finally went off in my head. You are in the NC mountains. DUH!

The class is Friday May 31st and Saturday June 1st. There is an evening
session on the Friday. The class is $155 per person if the check is post
marked by May 21st. $175 for the class after that date. I just got the
notice Saturday so there sure was not alot of advanced notice. I'm
assuming the class is in Raleigh but they are not saying in the brochure.

The NCSC phone number listed in the brochure is 919-515-5778. This
might be a fax number. I don't see any other contact information other
than that number and snail mail.

The info that they want for registration is title, name, address, phone/fax,
email, how you be paying, price you are paying, and whether you want
a vegitarian meal. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Since you are in NC. NC does have state tax breaks for solar. And they
are strange requirements/rules. There are to maximum amounts the
state will provide for solar. The first maximum is 50% of what you
paid in state taxes. So if you paid $1,000 then you can only get a
refund of $500. The other maximum is the cap they put on a particular
item. For instance, if you put in a solar water heater, I guessing at
this point, but I think the state will pay as much as $1,500. But if you
only paid $1,000 in state taxes then they will only give you $500 back.
If you paid $10,000 in state taxes you would get the full refund amount
of $1,500. If $1,500 is the actual amount the state refunds. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
The other side of this three sided coin, is that the solar water heater
ain't gonna cost $1,500. Its going to be a bit more. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif At least
the prices I have seen.

Now this gets a bit more confusing when you start talking passive
solar houses. You have to meet certain ratios between the area of the
windows and the floor area to be heated. Also north facing windows
are minimized if I remember. BUT, you can right off the cost in some
of the passive solar items. The real limit in much of this is what one
pays in state taxes. So if you are paying alot in state taxes consider
yourself lucky! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

To maximize what we can get the state to pay for we are going to
try to put in the solar in stages. Obviously the structural passive
aspects we will right off first. You right the "system" off in the year
it goes into service. So the passive "system" would be written off
in the year the house was built. We will put in the radient flooring
when the house is built. But we won't add the solar panels for
heating the water/fluid until the following year. That way we should
be able to structure this over two years.

Now if this was a buisiness or a MULTIFAMILY dwelling then you can
write this off over five years. We where playing with the idea of a
mother in law suite to see if we could qualify for a multifamily
dwelling but that just is not going to work for us. Plus we would
most likely run into some other obstacle. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Hope this helps...
Dan McCarty

 

[wasabi]

I share your desire to harness energy, but think you will conclude, as I have, that hydro far more viable and efficient than the alternatives.

My feeling is if you have it, why not use it! We are blessed with two year round springs for our water supply, gardening, orchard and vineyard irrigation....all available for the routing with a gravity feed system. Our main stream, which is about middle of the property elevation-wise, will be used for two ponds of just less than an acre each and hydro-electric.

You are correct, the means IS often provided...(in our case we also shopped for it) too often all that is lacking is the initiative (you have my permission to remind me later of that when I am covered in mud, trying to dig trenches, cursing the rocky terrain and whining for more help and ideas here on TBN).

My calculations lead me to believe this is imminently doable. I doubt I'll get off as cheap the Scotland folks, but I vow not go too far overboard on this project....I'll save that for PT attachments /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

So many projects, so little time...

 

[dmccarty]

Wasabi,

I'm not sold on fuel cells based on what I keep hearing and reading.

Nothing is free, well TBN is I supposed, /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif and that goes for
fuel cells. Some POWER/ENERGY is still required to create the
hydrogen. I just read the Honda was trying to build/sell
some fuel cells that would be used by cities/truck companies, etc,
The fuel cells would be rather large and would supply fleet operations
with the Big H. BUT the energy to do this was provided by natural
gas. All of the auto applications that seem to be serious are using
gas or some other petro product to power the process to create the H.
The H is then burned to run the car. One advantage is that pollution
is zero with burning the H but I wonder about the process TO H. No
body seems to mention this at all. Nor due they talk about the energy
loss in the process to create H. So I'm sceptical of the claimes of
better milage...

The only other sources of power are Nukes and Solar. But I don't really
see either of those really working to produce the huge volume of H that
is required. I hear quite a bit on the news about how fuel cells are going
to change the world but I don't see how if the basis for the conversion
is fossil fuel based.

If cold fusion or fusion at all ever became a reality. Then we would see
a huge change in they way people live. The politics would change as well.
I'm not sure for the better but they would change. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Later...
Dan

 

[mbsil]

"I would bet everything on solar power"..Thomas Edison

 

[Harv]

<font color=blue>Some POWER/ENERGY is still required to create th hydrogen.</font color=blue>

True, but that energy could be solar. At least that what a buddy of mine does. For many years he headed alternative energy research for the Chevron Corporation, and has since started his own company called <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.hionsolar.com>H-ION Solar Inc.</A> Take a look at what he's been up to, and maybe drop him a note. He's the easiest guy in the world to talk to, and loves the subject.

Tell Walt that the scrawny kid that grew up next door to him sent you.

 

[hayden]

Patrickg's pointer to Home Power is a must.

Harris Hydro is probably the most popular micro hydro generator/wheel used for high head sites like yours. They just came out with a version based on an induction motor too!

You can also check out www.backwoodssolar.com and look at their hydro section. There's good info and they sell a video tape and planning guide papers that are useful. The video is a real kick, but the info is good.

You can run the generator to produce DC, then use an inverter to get AC for your house. The inverter can also do the intertie to the grid to provide backup power and sell back. Trace/Xantrex is a very popular inverter and they have models made specifically for intertie with no batteries. If you don't need battery backup, let the grid be your batteries as Patrickg suggests.

I haven't done one of these but would love to, and I've got the head and flow for it. Just need time.

My neighbor has a house that's 100% powered by a Harris Hydro system and has been so for over 10 years. He's real happy with it.

 

[wasabi]

I've only been researching fuel cells for a bit over a year now (for investment potential), so I by no means claim to be conversant in all aspects. At the risk of raising TBN ire for 1) being a bit off topic and 2) discussing a quaisi-political topic, here is my .02 summary version take on it all:

I too have been skeptical about the H production aspects, but have come away from my research convinced that there are myriad viable means to do so...electrolysis, salts, ammonia, hydro-driven and yes, hydrocarbon extraction are all out there. Remember that hydrogen is literally the most ubiquitous element on earth.

The real bottleneck problem (aside from the HUGE global political challenges) is, IMHO, infrastructure related. It will take years to change consumer patterns and provide for safe storage and transportation. (Significant strides kind of akin to computer code compression are being made in this area)

If (a huge IF) the political/economic climate were to become more favorable toward shifting to a hydrogen based economy, I'm convinced the solutions are now there or very close. The problems are primarily functions of scale and demand.

I'm tracking a couple dozen amazing little companies that are after various aspects of this. Great work is happening all over the globe in this area....ALL the major car and oil companies are frantically chasing after this puck with significant investments in R&D. Check out a little company in Vancouver called Stuart that owns most of the electrolysis patents and makes small hydrogen generating appliances (stationary or portable) the size of an air conditioner (yes, electricity is an ancillary cost) that splits water into hydrogen and oxygen.

In the next few years we'll see a slew of new "green" autos and scooters ranging from fuel cell only to hybrids, some with on-board conversion technologies that transform gasoline to hydrogen with some actual efficiency gains, innovative storage approaches and such...together with attendant hype, misinformation and confusion on these related topics.

I don't believe for a second there is any question of "if" fuel cells become accepted....more simply a matter of when....but unless more consumers embrace the concepts it could be lifetimes before REAL significant shifts occurs.

Imagine what a full court press toward such innovative independence from foreign oil could do to stimulate our economy....that said, I doubt there is a politician on the planet that would risk taking arrows or falling on their sword for such a cause in this day and age....

Ok, sorry for the excessive pontificating....I'll step off the soap box now.....A good read on the topic is Tomorrows Energy by Peter Hoffmann.

 

[wasabi]

Thanks for weighing in on this hayden. Harris is a terrific resource...I've spent time talking with them and visiting their website. I like what I read about the Trace inverters.

Did not know about the backwoodssolar bit. I'll check it out. Mayhaps, if you and others have interest, we can rally the growing TBN clout to garner members a discount like MChalkley was able to do with pro-ears. /w3tcompact/icons/cool.gif

 

[Egon]

Solar Power:

Gosh fellows, I beleive all those fossil fuels are the result of solar power. In fact our whole system seems to run on solar power.

Egon

 

[MossRoad]

On a slighlty different subject, have you ever seen a hydraulic water ram? I've heard of them and seen them on the web, but never seen one in operation.

Apparently, they use the pressure of falling water to pump water up hill. The formula that I saw was something like for every 10 gallons of drop 1 gallon can be pumped up hill up to 10 times the drop. So, 10 gallons falling down 10 feet can pump one gallon up 100 feet. They use no power at all and only have two moving parts. Do a search on google or altavista for 'hydraulic water ram' and you'll get quite a few hits.

 

[Harv]

<font color=blue>ever seen a hydraulic water ram?</font color=blue>

Now that you jog my memory, I looked into them a few years ago and thought they were a terrific idea. My intention then (and will be again someday) was to intall one below the dam of my pond where the runoff could be captured and rammed up to a holding tank at the top of the hill. From there I could use gravity to irregate parts of the land which are otherwise pretty far from a water source.

I'd have to dig some, but I had charts that showed the relationship between the amount of head at the source, the diameter of the first ram stage and the diameter of the final output. Seems to me there was a limit as to how high you could pump, and 100 feet sounds like a little much to hope for, but you may be right.

It's a very cool concept. /w3tcompact/icons/clever.gif

 

[MossRoad]

Here's a link to a home made hydraulic water ram.
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://virtual.clemson.edu/groups/irrig/Equip/ram.htm>http://virtual.clemson.edu/groups/irrig/Equip/ram.htm</A>

 

[wasabi]

There is also a double acting ram that will use flow from a stream to move water from a spring. Link: http://www.riferam.com/rams/daram.htm

 

[Harv]

Hey, that's a great web page, David!

I've bookmarked it, and will probably waste a good deal of my day reading it over. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Not sure where to put this on my project list, but let's see. It took me two weeks to plant a tetherball pole, so this one should take me, uh..........

 

[mbsil]

So which OIL COMPANY do you work for Egon? /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[wasabi]

Egon,

agree re: the source

are you fluent with hydro electric generation on small scale?