Smoking Alternator Wire

ctmeans · Apr 30, 2012

I own a YM1600, I bought it a year ago from an older gentleman who used it with a 4' finish mower. I changed all fluids and filters afterwards and has run great since. I had noticed 2 things: 1. If not hooked up to a battery charger it will not have enough juice after about 2 weeks to start it (I replaced the battery as well. It was bad, but continues to slowly drain the battery). It has an alternator, but I didn't check it with the motor running and the + battery cable off because I changed the battery and it worked, but just drained more slowly. The ignition was having a hard time, plus the key was sometimes turning and sometimes not. So I bought a replacement ignition switch.

The first observation was that my old ignition switch only had 3 screws on terminals into the cylindrical body (no right angles like the "new" one) and the new one has several terminals and is MUCH larger. In fact it was so large that it would not fit correctly because it would hit the odometer/tachometer from behind. I found another hole in front with a rubber plug and was able to place it there. I don't know if the ignition switch was changed before and the "new" one is actually the original (although I would doubt it as to the fitting issue with the odomter gauge)?

So after installing here are the second observations. I typically will push in the clutch, and pull the (I don't what its called but I think it is a deompresion lever thingy), and then crank her over with the exceleration lever pulled back. Once turned over and rpm's high I push in the exceleration lever to middle range and warm up. When wanting to shut down I push the exceration lever all the way in and it shuts down. Now when I push it all the way in it won't stall, it just putts really slowly and will only turn off if I turn the key off (I was told this was harder on the engine to just turn the key off and better to slowly let it die).

The third and key question: After starting up and mowing about 15 minutes into it there was smoke coming from engine. I looked over and the alternator was smoking. I quickly stopped and shut her down. Wires totally fried. Not able to turn over any more, just smokes as wire gets hot if you try to turn it over. Errrr!!!!

1. Is this normal for this igition switch?

2. Could the "new" ignition switch causes too many amps to be pulled by the alternator?

3. Was this more likely a 30+ year starter going out around the same time as I intalled the new ignition switch?

4. Now that I'll have to replace the starter, is there anything else that needs replaced too (like voltage regulator, fuse strips converted to plug in fuses, alternator) so I don't accidently fry the new starter?

BTW I plan to replace most of the wiring as it looks like toast and will get things back to bare clean metal.

clemsonfor · Apr 30, 2012

You cant cut these tractors off with the key, its just happens to be dying on its own its just coincidence. You can cut the key off while running and it has no effect. Once started is all the key does, the thing makes it owns electricity. To get it to stop, reach down and pull the linckage back toward you that your lever attaches to. This stops alll the fuel from the injector pump. Mine has never really shut off well. It will kind of deisel really slowly like your describing and eventually die, this is hard on an engine to idle it this slowly. Just reach under on your right side and pull the linkage toward you. You can do it on or off the tractor.

ctmeans · Apr 30, 2012

So about the part with the key...you said that they won't cut off with the key. This is what I found with my old ignition module. The new one would cut off with the key. I wired it according to the wiring diagram it came with. One goes to the fuses, big wire from the battery to B and last wire from starter to C. What am I missing?

clemsonfor · Apr 30, 2012

Im not an ignition GURU, just never been into mine so i have not been there yet. I think Winston and or California both have the diagrams and i know Cali has replaced one before. So i cant help you with what colors and what goes where? There will be a power, ground, thermostart (if you have it), start, and maybe something else i forget. But i have only looked at mine so i cant help there like i said. I do know once started you key has nothing to do with running the engine. You do want to keep the key On as if its off your battery wont charge while running. But your key cant cut it OFF, its a Deisel engine. Its compression ignition, the power at that point has nothing to do with the engine. You dont even need an ALT the only thing that does is charge the battery or run your lights if your battery is bad. IF your alt is bad your lights will work till battery is dead. You can start this thing disconnect your battery pull it out and shut your key off and run all day long. If yours is cutting off you have some power actuated fuel soloniod or something? This afterall is what cuts off a newer Deisel tractor, the fuel is cut off. AGAIN there is no ignition so what is the key gonna cut off that will stop the engine from running. All it needs is fuel (which is mechanical injected) air, and compression to run.

Ginormous · May 1, 2012

Regarding your wires getting hot. You ought to check your electrical connections, especially the ground from the battery to the frame. After 30+ years, corrosion takes its toll on an electrical connection. Apparently this is a common issue and can lead to HOT wires. I had this issue, and it's easy enough to fix with a little sand paper and some time to disconnect and reconnect wires.

ctmeans · May 1, 2012

I finally had a chance to look at things. I really think it's a wire issue and not a switch issue. The problem is that the tractor is 30+ years with ??? prior owners (in fact my hour meter was not working when I bought it and am in the process of seeing if a new cable can get me going again). When you look at the wiring from the battery back it looks terrible. There is more electrical tape and homemade jobbies than you can shake a stick at. There are 3 coats of paint, each different, with the most recent just a JD green

. You can't tell where all the wires go and the ones that do connect are terribly corroded, especially at the alternator and starter connections as they see the most weathering as they are not covered by metal.

Before hooking up the new starter I plan to rewire the tractor on most wires. I plan to sand down and de-rust all connections. Finally check with volt meter connections as well.

Any suggestions on this project? Since I am removing so many things I plan to sand down any body rust (mainly the hood) and repaint to its "original" glory. Thanks for all the input so far.

Ginormous · May 1, 2012

ctmeans said:
Any suggestions on this project? Since I am removing so many things I plan to sand down any body rust (mainly the hood) and repaint to its "original" glory. Thanks for all the input so far.

Sounds like a good plan on the electrical. I suggest you use hardener in the paint when you spray it on. It will weather better.

Snaker · May 2, 2012

I'm doing a lot of guessing here, but are you sure that with the different switch and location, the throttle linkage isn't hitting a terminal or rubbing a wire? I would watch that while moving throttle and foot throttle if you have one.

shawnjvl · May 2, 2012

Repaint I did, I took the entire wire out and redid it also. http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/yanmar/184891-repaint-ym2000.html

ctmeans said:
I finally had a chance to look at things. I really think it's a wire issue and not a switch issue. The problem is that the tractor is 30+ years with ??? prior owners (in fact my hour meter was not working when I bought it and am in the process of seeing if a new cable can get me going again). When you look at the wiring from the battery back it looks terrible. There is more electrical tape and homemade jobbies than you can shake a stick at. There are 3 coats of paint, each different, with the most recent just a JD green. You can't tell where all the wires go and the ones that do connect are terribly corroded, especially at the alternator and starter connections as they see the most weathering as they are not covered by metal.

Before hooking up the new starter I plan to rewire the tractor on most wires. I plan to sand down and de-rust all connections. Finally check with volt meter connections as well.

Any suggestions on this project? Since I am removing so many things I plan to sand down any body rust (mainly the hood) and repaint to its "original" glory. Thanks for all the input so far.

ctmeans · May 2, 2012

Re: Rubbing wires. I think that is a good possibility. The problem as I mentioned before is that the wires look like a rat's nest and then they put electric tape all over them. I plan to completely redo the wiring.

Re: Painting. I have already bought all the paint. I bought at TSC: Massey Red, White, Black and a grey primer. I also was trying to keep as original as possible and I read that Rustoleum spruce green was a very close match for the frame and engine. The problem is our local Lowes could get it from Rustoleum and I prepaid, but they called later and said Rustoleum no longer makes in a quart, only shaker cans.

So...

1. I went ahead and bought a case (6) of the spruce green. Is that enough to cover the engine and frame?

2. Because it's from a can I can't add hardner. Is this a problem and should I rather have a paint store mix the spruce green color in a quart so I can add hardner and shoot with my gun?

3. For the black color... I got the rustoleum glossy black, but should I rather have bought the black for high temps, esp. for the exhaust?

Thanks in advance

Ginormous · May 2, 2012

My 2 cents on painting:

1) 6 cans ought to be plenty to paint the frame/engine

2) The hardener would stay shiny longer and generally hold up better. You can order Yanmar color paints in quarts and gallons from Hoye and Fredricks. They also sell hardener.

3) I think the only black painted parts on my tractors (2210 and 1700) are the exhaust, and for that you would want a high temp paint, like they sell for grills

ctmeans · May 22, 2012

Ok, Update on the smoking wire incident:

I have gone through the wiring rat's nest of 8 feet of painted electrical tape and unraveled everything. Scary

There were wires that were to go from the starter to the alternator to the regulator and to the igition switch. So instead of termining them at the source the would "T" into the wire and wrap around it and tape it like crazy. I really think that all the moving finally got some wires to cross and fried everything. The main culpret was the wire from the starter to the ingition switch. It was one mess of melted plastic with copper. At least I can still tell point to point so I can replace everything. What a mess!!!

So I have ordered a new starter because it is fried and all new wiring from batter back. I also ordered a new blade fuse conversion kit to go away from the old fuse strips.

The regulator on this YM1600 is not solid state. It is located under the dash and is 3" x 2" with 5 tabs that you screw terminals into (they are labeled correspondingly with the alternator with E-F-N-A with a grounding source on the side). When you take it off you see what looks like capasitors.

1. Should I replace the Regulator with a new solid state one?

2. Should I keep the old one, clean all contacts and make sure there is continuity?

3. Does continuity prove that the regulator is indeed regulating the proper voltage?

4. Should I try and replace the alternator with a "GM" style that has a built in 60 amp regulator and bi-pass the old regulator?

I just really don't want to fry this new starter.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

clemsonfor · May 22, 2012

I dont think you can fit the old style 1 wire or any of the old american Alts in this tiny tractor?

Good luck but seems you got it handled. I think once you get the wires right you got it.

farmfun · May 22, 2012

ctmeans said:
So about the part with the key...you said that they won't cut off with the key. This is what I found with my old ignition module. The new one would cut off with the key. I wired it according to the wiring diagram it came with. One goes to the fuses, big wire from the battery to B and last wire from starter to C. What am I missing?

The key controls starter solenoid and lights. A diesel engine is a controlled explosion run on, in that as long as there is fuel the hot surfaces inside will provide combustion. UNLIKE CAR DIESELS that use an electric fuel shutoff in the line so when you shut off the key - the electric valve kills fuel flow, our tractors are manual interruption of fuel flow.

damammel · May 23, 2012

I would think you could make a gm alternator work. Not to familiar with the 1600 but I was able to fit one on a 1500d. A little fabrication work for brackets and it's been about a year running it. It's nice having all the power you need to run lights.

ctmeans · May 24, 2012

I really am leaning towards the GM alternator option. You might lean that way as well if you could see what I see with the state of the voltage regulator. Since it's essentially open (not really sealed but just screwed with the open back towards the back of the instrument panel) the capasitors (or whatever they are) are corroded. I haven't had time to get my multimeter out and check connectivity, but it can't be great. Even with conduction I don't know what the ohm specs are. I know cars are different (and more sensative) but my saturn recently had problems with the coil packs. There was connectivity, but they were out of tolerance for their resistance and the PCM would not fire correctly. They looked perfectly fine though.

I ramble a lot!!! But my main question is where do you get the GM type alternator? Do you take it off and bring it to Autozone and have them size it and specify an internally regulated alternator for around 60 amps? The 1600 looks to be around the same size as the 1500. It is a 16 HP tractor and should have room as the hood doesn't cover that area. Most of the engine area is exposed. Worse case senario is to have to modify brackets and possibly belt size.

farmfun · May 24, 2012

Autozone or even JC Whitney if it floats your boat.

Mine is the 3110D, so I had NO problem with it concerning clearance. I even was able to leave the existing reg box to drive the Yanmar idiot light.

So I have gauges and Idiot light systems for Oil, Temp and Charge. It's really when GREAT when working at night ....

California · May 24, 2012

Ctmeans, take off the regulator and alternator and take them to Autozone for a free test.

YM2000, slightly later (??) than your YM1600, used the same parts as 71~72 Datsun (Nissan) so when they set their tester for that, the regulator tested fine. Hopefully Yanmar also used these components for YM1600 as well. I don't think that is earlier than early 70's.

However . . . don't make the darnfool mistake I made. The regulator I tested was a new one from Hoye because I had ruined my original regulator and then alternator, when I pressure-washed hardened mud out that was packed under the old regulator. Those components under there are big heat-dissipating resistors, mounted there for air circulation, so I felt they needed to be cleaned. Fatal mistake. Their wires aren't sealed watertight where they enter the bottom of the regulator enclosure.

I bought my replacement alternator from Autozone that day, but I kept the new Hoye regulator and installed it because they've been good to me.

Everything still works great 8 years later.

damammel · May 24, 2012

I got chose an alternator from a 96 Chevy Suburban since the bolt holes were not 180 degree offset. It allowed me to fit it in a tighter location. It was a 105 amp. Get a harness out of the junk yard. It will have the fusible link already inline and the right connections.

Alien · May 24, 2012

No need to go with a large alternator unless you are running extra spotlights etc. The engine dosen't need power to run, only the lighting and battery charging circuit. Most definitely get rid of the original (antique) alternator and regulator system. Alternators with inbuilt regulators require less wiring and last for many years and regs are easy to change if you ever need to. Enjoy your project.