gemini5362
Veteran Member
I agree that a good ceo might be worth the money but i have a question for you. Did those bad Ceo's just finish out their contract or were they fired and if so did they get a good going away settlement.
So would you buy a new GM truck now?
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I agree that a good ceo might be worth the money but i have a question for you. Did those bad Ceo's just finish out their contract or were they fired and if so did they get a good going away settlement.
Builder
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You oughta see the disparity between union construction & non-union and their philosophy towards work. In masonry, me and my guys set 12" concrete block all day long. Each guy gets a pile of block and a mortar pan. You get in the trench at 7 AM and lay block. Union block layers are actually not allowed to lay 12" block themselves. No, the union requires that TWO masons must pick up each side of each 12" block and set the blocks together. 
On top of that, they make at least double what a non-union layer makes.
So you have two union block layers, making twice as much money as one non-union layer laying block by himself. If my math is correct, it costs 4 times as much to have a union crew lay block as a non-union crew.
I've layed probably 10,000 12" concrete block in my 25 years on josites by myself. I don't want a helper wth a hardhat, safety glasses, gloves, steel toe safety shoes and a $35/hour wage in the trench with me. I'd be too embarrassed.
And we wonder why gov't construction projects and other prevailing wage or union projects are so expensive for taxpayers to pay for.
On top of that, they make at least double what a non-union layer makes. So you have two union block layers, making twice as much money as one non-union layer laying block by himself. If my math is correct, it costs 4 times as much to have a union crew lay block as a non-union crew.
I've layed probably 10,000 12" concrete block in my 25 years on josites by myself. I don't want a helper wth a hardhat, safety glasses, gloves, steel toe safety shoes and a $35/hour wage in the trench with me. I'd be too embarrassed.
And we wonder why gov't construction projects and other prevailing wage or union projects are so expensive for taxpayers to pay for.
gemini5362
Veteran Member
It seems a union employee can not get fired due to the mounds of red tape and fear of the union by the employer.
Chris[/QUOTE] I wont speak for other unions but I will repeat what you said earlier to me. You are plain wrong here. I was up all night preparing for a case I am handling next month in tennessee an employee was fired and I am representing him. two weeks after that there is one in atlanta that was fired and I am going to be representing him. I was up all night looking through our database of arbitration decisions I look at those we won to see why and those we lost to see why. I probably looked at a hundred cases last night of good union members with up to 25 years on the job that were fired and lost their case so they stayed fired. I have personally handled cases of people that were fired and we lost. I rarely see someone that was fired and deserved to be fired win. When they do it is almost always for two reasons. one is because it was a borderline offense of whether or not they should be fired and the arbitrator (who has absolute authority) decides that for some reason or other they deserve another chance. In those cases a lot of time the arbitrator will put them back to work with no back pay. Some cases can take a year or longer to get to arbitration so you are talking about a loss of a years pay. That is a pretty severe punishment for most people. If they have found work in that time that offsets it but can be a substantial loss. The second reason is what you are talking about is contract violations. Our contract has discipline measures built in to it with safetys to keep a rogue manager from just firing someone on a whim. The cases the union wins on these violations is because a manager did not want to follow the procedure that is outlined in the contract. One of the most common ones I see is no one can be fired without an higher level manager reviewing the discipline and concurring with the lower managers decision to fire. The higher level manager has to do their own independent investigation. The higher level manager can not just rubber stamp the first managers findings. You would be amazed at the number of times that I go to arbitration and I ask the second manager to tell us the results of his investigation. The replies are literally " What investigation, he brought me the paperwork and I signed it. " This is a binding contract upon both parties. When something like that happens the arbitrator just rolls his or her eyes and you try not to laugh.
Chris[/QUOTE] I wont speak for other unions but I will repeat what you said earlier to me. You are plain wrong here. I was up all night preparing for a case I am handling next month in tennessee an employee was fired and I am representing him. two weeks after that there is one in atlanta that was fired and I am going to be representing him. I was up all night looking through our database of arbitration decisions I look at those we won to see why and those we lost to see why. I probably looked at a hundred cases last night of good union members with up to 25 years on the job that were fired and lost their case so they stayed fired. I have personally handled cases of people that were fired and we lost. I rarely see someone that was fired and deserved to be fired win. When they do it is almost always for two reasons. one is because it was a borderline offense of whether or not they should be fired and the arbitrator (who has absolute authority) decides that for some reason or other they deserve another chance. In those cases a lot of time the arbitrator will put them back to work with no back pay. Some cases can take a year or longer to get to arbitration so you are talking about a loss of a years pay. That is a pretty severe punishment for most people. If they have found work in that time that offsets it but can be a substantial loss. The second reason is what you are talking about is contract violations. Our contract has discipline measures built in to it with safetys to keep a rogue manager from just firing someone on a whim. The cases the union wins on these violations is because a manager did not want to follow the procedure that is outlined in the contract. One of the most common ones I see is no one can be fired without an higher level manager reviewing the discipline and concurring with the lower managers decision to fire. The higher level manager has to do their own independent investigation. The higher level manager can not just rubber stamp the first managers findings. You would be amazed at the number of times that I go to arbitration and I ask the second manager to tell us the results of his investigation. The replies are literally " What investigation, he brought me the paperwork and I signed it. " This is a binding contract upon both parties. When something like that happens the arbitrator just rolls his or her eyes and you try not to laugh.
BungeeII
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The last thing I'll say on this thread (not that anyone cares)....
If you're in the market for a new GM truck, now would be a great time to buy.
If you think you can lay GM's myriad of troubles at the feet of a union employee, you're pulling the wool over your own eyes. I know it's natural for us to want to blame the trouble on someone, but there's many facets to this multi-billion dollar industry, too many for passers-by on an internet forum to suppose they know the answers to (myself included) or causes.
If you're in the market for a new GM truck, now would be a great time to buy.
If you think you can lay GM's myriad of troubles at the feet of a union employee, you're pulling the wool over your own eyes. I know it's natural for us to want to blame the trouble on someone, but there's many facets to this multi-billion dollar industry, too many for passers-by on an internet forum to suppose they know the answers to (myself included) or causes.
Builder
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I've said all along that the Big 3 are burdened by gov't regulation, high oil prices, overpaid CEO's, mismanagement and ridiculous union contracts & legacy costs.
It's not just the unions alone, but they're a huge factor in their demise. With the unions & CEOs it's all about greed of the individual, not what's good for the company.
Iplayfarmer
Super Member
Some were fired, Some were board members who filled in for a period of as much as a year while they looked for someone else. The one I respect the most actually stepped down after about a half a year. He went to the board and told them that the job they hired him to do (increase retail sales) was not the best direction to take the company and that there were others more qualified than him to take the company in the right direction. I don't know about any settlements. The company was privately owned, and so the CEO salaries and buyouts weren't public.
I actaully left that company to go work for the first CEO who is now running another similar company.
How many of you can say you were hired by the same guy twice?
Blackhammer
Member
You said it Buddy!
I have never been a fan of unions. I think they were needed at a time in this countrys history but now we are passed all that.
By the way the Case looks good over here too.
A Modern Parable.
A Japanese company (xxxxxxx) and an American company (xxxxxxx) decided
to have a canoe race on the Missouri River Both teams practiced long
and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.
On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.
The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the
reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior
management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.
Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person
steering, while the American team had 7 people steering and 2 people rowing.
Feeling a deeper study was in order; American management hired a consulting
company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.
They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while
not enough people were rowing.
Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent
another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally
reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 2 area steering superintendents
and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.
They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 2 people
rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the
'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners and free pens for the
rowers. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other
equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses. The pension
program was trimmed to 'equal the competition' and some of the resultant savings were
channeled into morale boosting programs and teamwork posters.
The next year the Japanese won by two miles.
Humiliated, the American management laid-off one rower, halted development
of a new canoe, sold all the paddles, and canceled all capital
investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as
bonuses.
The next year, try as he might, the lone designated rower was unable to
even finish the race (having no paddles,) so he was laid off for unacceptable
performance, all canoe equipment was sold and the next year's racing team
was out-sourced to India .
Sadly, the End.
Here's something else to think about: xxxxx has spent the last thirty years
moving all its factories out of the US , claiming they can't make money
paying American wages.
xxxxxx has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants
inside the US The last quarter's results:
xxxxxxx makes 4 billion in profits while xxxxxx racked up 9 billion in
losses.
xxxxxxx folks are still scratching their heads, and collecting bonuses...
IF THIS WEREN'T SO TRUE IT MIGHT BE FUNNY
A Japanese company (xxxxxxx) and an American company (xxxxxxx) decided
to have a canoe race on the Missouri River Both teams practiced long
and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.
On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.
The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the
reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior
management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.
Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person
steering, while the American team had 7 people steering and 2 people rowing.
Feeling a deeper study was in order; American management hired a consulting
company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.
They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while
not enough people were rowing.
Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent
another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally
reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 2 area steering superintendents
and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.
They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 2 people
rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the
'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners and free pens for the
rowers. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other
equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses. The pension
program was trimmed to 'equal the competition' and some of the resultant savings were
channeled into morale boosting programs and teamwork posters.
The next year the Japanese won by two miles.
Humiliated, the American management laid-off one rower, halted development
of a new canoe, sold all the paddles, and canceled all capital
investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as
bonuses.
The next year, try as he might, the lone designated rower was unable to
even finish the race (having no paddles,) so he was laid off for unacceptable
performance, all canoe equipment was sold and the next year's racing team
was out-sourced to India .
Sadly, the End.
Here's something else to think about: xxxxx has spent the last thirty years
moving all its factories out of the US , claiming they can't make money
paying American wages.
xxxxxx has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants
inside the US The last quarter's results:
xxxxxxx makes 4 billion in profits while xxxxxx racked up 9 billion in
losses.
xxxxxxx folks are still scratching their heads, and collecting bonuses...
IF THIS WEREN'T SO TRUE IT MIGHT BE FUNNY
dgl24087
Veteran Member
Bob Nardelli, formerly CEO of Home Depot, is with Chrysler, not Ford. Mullaly of Ford led the Boeing turnaround.
2manyrocks
Super Member
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Would I buy a new GM truck now? No, but it has nothing to do with the quality of the vehicle or continued viability of GM. We have enough working vehicles already, and I wouldn't want to commit cash to buy another vehicle nor go in debt to buy another vehicle seeing that everyone else's business is sharply down and not seeing any uptick coming.
Carrying this a step further, I suppose that much of the Big 3 car sales were financed. If people don't have jobs or are concerned about losing their job, this can't be good for sales of big ticket items like vehicles.
Our local GM dealer is going out of business. The local Ford dealer used to be cautious not to stock a lot of inventory because of experiences in the 1970's with holding too much inventory, but they've got a lot of inventory on the lot that doesn't appear to be moving.
I keep coming back to fuel prices--they went through the roof and now they're half or less of what they were just a couple of months ago, but the damage has been done to the stock market, real estate, banking and I suppose about everything in between except for maybe politicians and even they probably are hindered in skimming as much as usual.
Carrying this a step further, I suppose that much of the Big 3 car sales were financed. If people don't have jobs or are concerned about losing their job, this can't be good for sales of big ticket items like vehicles.
Our local GM dealer is going out of business. The local Ford dealer used to be cautious not to stock a lot of inventory because of experiences in the 1970's with holding too much inventory, but they've got a lot of inventory on the lot that doesn't appear to be moving.
I keep coming back to fuel prices--they went through the roof and now they're half or less of what they were just a couple of months ago, but the damage has been done to the stock market, real estate, banking and I suppose about everything in between except for maybe politicians and even they probably are hindered in skimming as much as usual.
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