txdon
Super Star Member
Question? Do people pay less for land if it does not include the mineral rights?
So, You think you own your land...
- Thread starter JazzDad
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I own 12 acres but I do not own the mineral rights (under the ground), but since I own the property, I own the surface rights and before they can come on my property, they must have my permission. To get my permission they will pay millions before I let any of them on my property.
Now this is about oil and gas folks here in South Texas. Electric companies or pipelines or other stuff just claim emminent domain and do what they want.
No one owns property in this world, you pay rent ever year in property taxes. If you still think you own it, don't pay your taxes and they will move you out and sell it to someone who pays the taxes.
Now this is about oil and gas folks here in South Texas. Electric companies or pipelines or other stuff just claim emminent domain and do what they want.
No one owns property in this world, you pay rent ever year in property taxes. If you still think you own it, don't pay your taxes and they will move you out and sell it to someone who pays the taxes.
jinman
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txdon said:
Another question...Why is it that only surface rights are taxed? I think if the people with mineral rights had to pay a portion of the taxes, we'd see a lot less people trying to buy them. The ultimate insult is when an oil company takes two acres for a drill rig and you have to continue paying property taxes because you still own the surface right. I think "rights" is just another word for "taxpayer."
riptides
Super Star Member
randy41 said:
Some do, some don't. And I say that because I think your in the commonwealth. Based on your profile.
i cannot speak for other states.
I spent a lot of time, well over 5 days, at the court house "researching" titles to my properties.
Some things would disappear over time.
-Mike Z.
charlz
Elite Member
jinman said:
Maybe because you are 'using' the land (even if it is just sitting) and mineral rights are typically not being developed?
Vernon (texbaylea) is seeing the point, among others.
If I own 99% of the mineral rights, the other 1% owner can allow the exploration company onto the surface. I'll let the other Texans reply; it's very difficult to buy 100% of the mineral rights under your property. Some of my neighbors thought they owned all the rights, some knew (when they purchased) that they didn't.
Historically, there has been drilling in the area. We (collectively) thought there was no more oil or gas to be had. But, as the cost of petroleum products goes up (demand), these companies will go back and look at what was a marginal production area and reassess it for profit.
A bank in Houston owns a minority percentage of the mineral rights under my patch of green, and they have allowed this series of events. Our government seems to encourage this exploration (read: increased revenue).
We think we are "owners", and yes, we may possess our land for however many years our creator has granted us, but the concept of allowing this taking of minerals for the common good smacks of communism.
If I own 99% of the mineral rights, the other 1% owner can allow the exploration company onto the surface. I'll let the other Texans reply; it's very difficult to buy 100% of the mineral rights under your property. Some of my neighbors thought they owned all the rights, some knew (when they purchased) that they didn't.
Historically, there has been drilling in the area. We (collectively) thought there was no more oil or gas to be had. But, as the cost of petroleum products goes up (demand), these companies will go back and look at what was a marginal production area and reassess it for profit.
A bank in Houston owns a minority percentage of the mineral rights under my patch of green, and they have allowed this series of events. Our government seems to encourage this exploration (read: increased revenue).
We think we are "owners", and yes, we may possess our land for however many years our creator has granted us, but the concept of allowing this taking of minerals for the common good smacks of communism.
KaiB
Silver Member
JazzDad, I feel badly that you may or may not end up with a pumpjack on your back fourty.
Your last comment was, however, way off point. Oil and gas exploration and production are private, for profit, endeavors. Shareholders in these companys expect profit.
Trust me, no-one is drilling for the "common good".
Your last comment was, however, way off point. Oil and gas exploration and production are private, for profit, endeavors. Shareholders in these companys expect profit.
Trust me, no-one is drilling for the "common good".
Unclebuck257
Platinum Member
Since I've been fighting a FOREIGN owned oil and gas company for the last 2 1/2 years on behalf of my neighbors and myself here in N Texas, I've learned quite a lot. Let me jump in here if I may.
Texas is one of the states that went under old Spanish Law many decades ago, where you were allowed to seperate the surface and mineral rights. In Texas, over and over through the decades various surface owners have tried suing the oil and gas companies over many different things, and until recently, Texas Law has always upheld that the mineral rights owner has dominance, legally, over the surface rights owner, meaning that ultimately, the mineral rights owner can do whatever is necessary to get the minerals out from underneath the surface. In the meantime, the surface owner can do nothing but stand by and basically watch.
Most of the laws in force today are laws that were made in the 40's, 50's and 60's when most of the land involved in oil and gas drilling, et al, operations was rural farm and ranch land, and because of that, no one really cared. Also, those rural residents many times had very little education, and were walked on, NO STEAMROLLED OVER would be a better phrase to use. Thus we have a bunch of VERY BAD law presently on the books in Texas as precident. Oil and gas in Texas did, AND STILL DOES, have the money to fight in court and the money to put in the pockets of politicians for re-election campaigns etc. Oil and Gas money in Texas controls our legislature, and thus our laws. It also controls many county level elected people too! Since Oil and gas has had it's way, literally for decades in Texas, you can imagine what kind of favorable laws we have in Texas FOR OIL AND GAS and whatever THEY WANT TO DO!!
Fast forward to modern day. Much of that once rural ranch and farm land is now owned by people like myself, educated people who are not willing to just sit back and be steamrolled over by oil and gas yahoos without putting up one heck of a good fight first, including trying to change bad law! I own 50 acres and I've invested my life into my home and property.
As Jinman already knows, the fight that my neighbors and I are involved in is with a foreign owned ( Arab owned) oil and gas company. It's a low class company, with a bad reputation of not even following the laws and regulations they are supposed to, that are on the books.
By the way, let me state now that we ARE NOT against the oil and gas industry, we only want them to act responsibly.
Anyhow, along with the drilling problems on your land for just oil and gas wells in itself, what many don't know is this...It takes approx 4.5 million gallons of water to drill the average oil or gas well, and about 90% of that water is recovered after the drilling of the well. Only difference is that now it's no longer just water, it's LIQUID TOXIC WASTE, containing at least 27 different types of toxic waste. For decades now, in Texas and other states, to fool the public, the oil and gas industry has LIED TO THE PUBLIC and called this Salt Water, even stating that it's nothing but brine water. That's one of the BIGGEST LIES of the whole drilling operation that has been fabricated by oil and gas. Oh yes, and the average gas well is "fraced" about 17 times in it's lifetime and each fracing takes about 3.5 million gallons of fresh water. It too becomes liquid toxic waste after fracing!
To dispose of this LIQUID TOXIC WASTE, for decades in Texas, oil and gas has been pressure injecting it back into the ground in old, non producing oil and gas wells, or drilling a new well to pressure inject it back into the ground. They've called these, "Salt Water Injection Wells", to cover the lies of what they REALLY ARE for decades now too! This Liquid Toxic Waste migrates to the surface and through the rock formations and winds up poluting private water wells, stock tanks, streams, rivers, lakes, and yes, our large aquifers too!
There is big money in just operating just an Injection well too, as a COMMERCIAL Injection well where liquid toxic waste from anywhere in the state, or the US for that matter, is trucked in and pressure injected into the ground at that well. The operator gets 80 cents to a dollar per barrel for injected liquid toxic waste!! The average commercial injection well takes in 20,000 to 30,000 barrels per day to inject into it! The land around an injection well loses 50-80% of it's value, overnight almost, but that doesn't include the severe, HIDDEN, health risks, the oil and gas industry has LIED ABOUT to the Texas public for decades now too!
Oh, and on land where the mineral rights have been sold, you could have an injection well too, depending on how those folks decades ago structured their mineral lease agreements!
Anyhow, we PROVED this foreign owned oil and gas company we are fighting, lied on their original application and then comtted perjury with testimony at the application hearing to back up those lies, but they were still issued a permit for the Commercial Injection well they want to operate near our properties. Think Texas isn't crooked regarding oil and gas!!!
Anyhow, we appealed and are now in the appellate courts to get the decision reversed and we believe we stand a good chance of changing Texas law and making some new, good, law in Texas about this aspect of oil and gas. Of course, since we started fighting, I have been on many guest speaking engagements, in many counties around Texas, appeared on TV News shows, and in many newspaper articles about the truth of what these injection wells really are. The Texas public, much of it in the Barnett Shale area anyway, has now become educated and are up in arms and very angry at this point. Politicians are now being FORCED to listen, because when the people know the TRUTH, the PEOPLE HAVE THE POWER at the voting booth and the politicans know that!!
Our case has oral arguments coming up a week from today before the Appeals Court Judges. I believe we will win!!
There is much more I could say, but I'm out of time right now!! I'll get back to this thread later.
In all fairness too, there are a few oil and gas companies who go out of their way to work with surface owners before they drill a well and do pay reasonably for the surface damage they cause and then clean up nicely after they leave too.
Texas is one of the states that went under old Spanish Law many decades ago, where you were allowed to seperate the surface and mineral rights. In Texas, over and over through the decades various surface owners have tried suing the oil and gas companies over many different things, and until recently, Texas Law has always upheld that the mineral rights owner has dominance, legally, over the surface rights owner, meaning that ultimately, the mineral rights owner can do whatever is necessary to get the minerals out from underneath the surface. In the meantime, the surface owner can do nothing but stand by and basically watch.
Most of the laws in force today are laws that were made in the 40's, 50's and 60's when most of the land involved in oil and gas drilling, et al, operations was rural farm and ranch land, and because of that, no one really cared. Also, those rural residents many times had very little education, and were walked on, NO STEAMROLLED OVER would be a better phrase to use. Thus we have a bunch of VERY BAD law presently on the books in Texas as precident. Oil and gas in Texas did, AND STILL DOES, have the money to fight in court and the money to put in the pockets of politicians for re-election campaigns etc. Oil and Gas money in Texas controls our legislature, and thus our laws. It also controls many county level elected people too! Since Oil and gas has had it's way, literally for decades in Texas, you can imagine what kind of favorable laws we have in Texas FOR OIL AND GAS and whatever THEY WANT TO DO!!
Fast forward to modern day. Much of that once rural ranch and farm land is now owned by people like myself, educated people who are not willing to just sit back and be steamrolled over by oil and gas yahoos without putting up one heck of a good fight first, including trying to change bad law! I own 50 acres and I've invested my life into my home and property.
As Jinman already knows, the fight that my neighbors and I are involved in is with a foreign owned ( Arab owned) oil and gas company. It's a low class company, with a bad reputation of not even following the laws and regulations they are supposed to, that are on the books.
By the way, let me state now that we ARE NOT against the oil and gas industry, we only want them to act responsibly.
Anyhow, along with the drilling problems on your land for just oil and gas wells in itself, what many don't know is this...It takes approx 4.5 million gallons of water to drill the average oil or gas well, and about 90% of that water is recovered after the drilling of the well. Only difference is that now it's no longer just water, it's LIQUID TOXIC WASTE, containing at least 27 different types of toxic waste. For decades now, in Texas and other states, to fool the public, the oil and gas industry has LIED TO THE PUBLIC and called this Salt Water, even stating that it's nothing but brine water. That's one of the BIGGEST LIES of the whole drilling operation that has been fabricated by oil and gas. Oh yes, and the average gas well is "fraced" about 17 times in it's lifetime and each fracing takes about 3.5 million gallons of fresh water. It too becomes liquid toxic waste after fracing!
To dispose of this LIQUID TOXIC WASTE, for decades in Texas, oil and gas has been pressure injecting it back into the ground in old, non producing oil and gas wells, or drilling a new well to pressure inject it back into the ground. They've called these, "Salt Water Injection Wells", to cover the lies of what they REALLY ARE for decades now too! This Liquid Toxic Waste migrates to the surface and through the rock formations and winds up poluting private water wells, stock tanks, streams, rivers, lakes, and yes, our large aquifers too!
There is big money in just operating just an Injection well too, as a COMMERCIAL Injection well where liquid toxic waste from anywhere in the state, or the US for that matter, is trucked in and pressure injected into the ground at that well. The operator gets 80 cents to a dollar per barrel for injected liquid toxic waste!! The average commercial injection well takes in 20,000 to 30,000 barrels per day to inject into it! The land around an injection well loses 50-80% of it's value, overnight almost, but that doesn't include the severe, HIDDEN, health risks, the oil and gas industry has LIED ABOUT to the Texas public for decades now too!
Oh, and on land where the mineral rights have been sold, you could have an injection well too, depending on how those folks decades ago structured their mineral lease agreements!
Anyhow, we PROVED this foreign owned oil and gas company we are fighting, lied on their original application and then comtted perjury with testimony at the application hearing to back up those lies, but they were still issued a permit for the Commercial Injection well they want to operate near our properties. Think Texas isn't crooked regarding oil and gas!!!
Anyhow, we appealed and are now in the appellate courts to get the decision reversed and we believe we stand a good chance of changing Texas law and making some new, good, law in Texas about this aspect of oil and gas. Of course, since we started fighting, I have been on many guest speaking engagements, in many counties around Texas, appeared on TV News shows, and in many newspaper articles about the truth of what these injection wells really are. The Texas public, much of it in the Barnett Shale area anyway, has now become educated and are up in arms and very angry at this point. Politicians are now being FORCED to listen, because when the people know the TRUTH, the PEOPLE HAVE THE POWER at the voting booth and the politicans know that!!
Our case has oral arguments coming up a week from today before the Appeals Court Judges. I believe we will win!!
There is much more I could say, but I'm out of time right now!! I'll get back to this thread later.
In all fairness too, there are a few oil and gas companies who go out of their way to work with surface owners before they drill a well and do pay reasonably for the surface damage they cause and then clean up nicely after they leave too.
Toiyabe
Silver Member
You own exactly what you bought. All land is subject to property taxes, eminent domain, and potentially various easements, mineral rights, water rights etc. etc. It is up to you to research that and take those factors into account in the purchase price.
If your definition of ownership doesn't bear any resemblance to reality, you can look forward to a life full of anger and resentment.
If you think that any land that previously produced oil will never produce oil again you've been paying too much attention to the peak oil nuts.
When you buy, you should take out a Title Insurance property. The Title Insurer then researches the Title for you, and is liable for the decrease in property value due to any encumberances they didn't find and tell you about.
If your definition of ownership doesn't bear any resemblance to reality, you can look forward to a life full of anger and resentment.
If you think that any land that previously produced oil will never produce oil again you've been paying too much attention to the peak oil nuts.
When you buy, you should take out a Title Insurance property. The Title Insurer then researches the Title for you, and is liable for the decrease in property value due to any encumberances they didn't find and tell you about.
texbaylea
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To answer TxDon and jinman:
Land values should be less without mineral rights but in an area where there has never been production from those mineral rights it is hard to assess.
When productive my mineral rights were taxed. When not productive they are simply a right not a property.
Vernon
Land values should be less without mineral rights but in an area where there has never been production from those mineral rights it is hard to assess.
When productive my mineral rights were taxed. When not productive they are simply a right not a property.
Vernon
Unclebuck257
Platinum Member
I might add that Texas is THE ONLY OIL AND GAS PRODUCING STATE that has NOT updated it's laws in recent years, giving surface owners more rights and say in what happens when oil and gas comes to drill on their properties! And I mean it's the ONLY ONE!!
All other oil and gas producing states have set down new rules and regulations by law, that must be followed by oil and gas drilling operations BEFORE a drill bit can touch the ground. This includes, loss of value to the surface owners land because of those ugly tanks left there for eternity! Compensation for the acres that oil and gas will be occupying for eternity due to those ugly tanks, compensation for any land used for roads by tank trucks to empty those ugly tanks, compensation for any/all loss of value, due to the drilling and follow-up operations.
Most other states though, control their oil and gas industries through their state legislature and laws. In Texas, it's controlled by The Railroad Commission and it's rules and regulations, which was set up by, is owned by, and is operated by, oil and gas people. This was done decades ago by guess who, yup, oil and gas people!! It's a classic example of "The Fox Guarding The Henhouse"!!
All other oil and gas producing states have set down new rules and regulations by law, that must be followed by oil and gas drilling operations BEFORE a drill bit can touch the ground. This includes, loss of value to the surface owners land because of those ugly tanks left there for eternity! Compensation for the acres that oil and gas will be occupying for eternity due to those ugly tanks, compensation for any land used for roads by tank trucks to empty those ugly tanks, compensation for any/all loss of value, due to the drilling and follow-up operations.
Most other states though, control their oil and gas industries through their state legislature and laws. In Texas, it's controlled by The Railroad Commission and it's rules and regulations, which was set up by, is owned by, and is operated by, oil and gas people. This was done decades ago by guess who, yup, oil and gas people!! It's a classic example of "The Fox Guarding The Henhouse"!!
slowrev
Elite Member
No one except Churches and such own land. If you think you own your land just quit paying taxes on it. We just lease it a year at a time from the gummit.JazzDad said:
Toiyabe
Silver Member
I would have figured that Texas was the sort of place where people would put fake pumpjacks in their front yard because they like the look of them.
Sort of like here in Nevada where lots of folks like to display old mining equipment. Attitudes are chaning here too, as were are getting invaded by Californians. Who is invading Texas?
Sort of like here in Nevada where lots of folks like to display old mining equipment. Attitudes are chaning here too, as were are getting invaded by Californians. Who is invading Texas?
jand38
Silver Member
Living in Texas and being around the oil and gas production I feel unclebuck257 explained the happenings that are very true. My example would be a person inherits land but move to another part of the united states they have the mineral rights and will not sell because of the large amount of money they stand to make you buy the property and spend most of your productive years improving the land yet and oil well can be drilled just about any place they want and you have no say and the mineral rights owners could care less what you think or want because the oil money will start to arrive .
I would like to see a law in all states that would revert mineral rights back to the land owner after 5 or 10 years so the people who pay the taxes and improve the land get the income not absentee mineral right owners who have nothing at stake except figuring out how to spend their new found wealth. I can not understand why a corporation or absentee mineral right owners should reap the benefits .
I do not know of any place in Texas that if you where to purchase land today that you could get the mineral rights if so very rare but the worse is yet to come" WATER "rights I will not be around but "Water" will be a very large issue in the feature and only big companies or men who have clout will be the $ winners. MD
I would like to see a law in all states that would revert mineral rights back to the land owner after 5 or 10 years so the people who pay the taxes and improve the land get the income not absentee mineral right owners who have nothing at stake except figuring out how to spend their new found wealth. I can not understand why a corporation or absentee mineral right owners should reap the benefits .
I do not know of any place in Texas that if you where to purchase land today that you could get the mineral rights if so very rare but the worse is yet to come" WATER "rights I will not be around but "Water" will be a very large issue in the feature and only big companies or men who have clout will be the $ winners. MD
KaiB
Silver Member
I'm having a hard time understanding the comments regarding taking away another persons property.
Why on earth should the owner of mineral rights be forced to give them back to a surface owner?
How can you complain about oil/gas exploration in an area where it should be very well known that the activity occurs?
This is all very NIMBY. What should we do, halt all gas and oil production?
Why on earth should the owner of mineral rights be forced to give them back to a surface owner?
How can you complain about oil/gas exploration in an area where it should be very well known that the activity occurs?
This is all very NIMBY. What should we do, halt all gas and oil production?
jinman
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KaiB said:
Same words from the opposite perspective....
I'm having a hard time understanding the comments regarding taking away another persons property.
Why on earth should the owner of surface rights be forced to give them back to a minerals owner?
How can you complain about surface improvements in an area where it should be very well known that the activity occurs?
This is all very NIMBY. What should we do, halt all farm and ranch production and development?
Toiyabe
Silver Member
jinman said:
Because the property owner sold those rights. If he wants them back he should buy them back. If he didn't intend to let the guy who he sold the mineral rights to act on those rights then the sale was fradulent.
KaiB
Silver Member
In this neck of the woods, surface owners make friends with the pumpers servicing the wells. Its amazing how much help they get with drive ways, fencing and the rest.
We have been approached several times with offers to sell our mineral rights (160 acres). There is a gas play developing. If we get drilled on, I can assure you that we will be firm but friendly with the lease; typical deal is around $300 an acre, a percentage of the production, and...
compensation for the surface use. I wouldn't mind another gate and lane into our land.
We have been approached several times with offers to sell our mineral rights (160 acres). There is a gas play developing. If we get drilled on, I can assure you that we will be firm but friendly with the lease; typical deal is around $300 an acre, a percentage of the production, and...
compensation for the surface use. I wouldn't mind another gate and lane into our land.
