Solar Power Shed Project

   / Solar Power Shed Project
  • Thread Starter
#91  
Pat,
Thank you for a most informative post. I will print what you wrote and review it with my solar contractor to see how it may work for us. He rattle off a bunch of alternative energy sources at our first meeting but I don't think this was one of them. Why did you ever move from here (you don't need to answer that)? You could've been doing this at my place by now.:)
We never did the dual/single axis tracker comparison mainly because of lack of knowledge, not even considering the trade off....probably a mistake? I hope it performs as was related to us. In any case, thanks for taking the time to explain my questions so thoroughly. Everything about the system still seems complicated and I'm still overwhelmed.

My cousins from Holland are visiting for the next couple weeks and I'll try to post more progress and photos after that.
You have been great.
Thanks,
 
   / Solar Power Shed Project #92  
3RRL said:
Pat,
Are you going propane with solar preheat or what for DHW?
Propane for sure but we are not sure exactly how to do the solar preheat? My wife will be in charge of this part.:)

SDHW is sooo simple. If you install a system, your propane will never be used for hot water.
Bob
 
   / Solar Power Shed Project #94  
Buy good batteries!

I'm running 8, 175 watt shell's.

2, 48 volt AirX's

Homemade hydro

8, 530S Rolls batteries

Outback inverter
Outback MPPT
Trimetric
Assorted other Outback items.

homemade tracker.
 
   / Solar Power Shed Project #95  
3RRL said:
Pat,
Why did you ever move from here?
We never did the dual/single axis tracker comparison mainly because of lack of knowledge, not even considering the trade off....probably a mistake?

I moved out of SOCAL (San Diego) as it had become way too crowded and expensive. I traded a pair of old rental houses, a one BR one bath and a 2 BR one bath on the same postage stamp sized lot in a going down hill neighborhood for 160 acres with 8 stocked ponds. I have built a couple more ponds and may do some more. I have room for a 1000 meter target range. We have lots of critters literally in our yard: bobcat, coon, possum, armadillo, deer, mountain lion, coyote, and lots of birds and sometinmes geese and ducks.

There are all sorts of solar DWH approaches that have been used in significant numbers in SOCAL. Many of them DID NOT stand the test of time. Of course all fads attract sleazy quick money installers so that was part of it but some of the equipment did not all last so well either. Lots of non functional rooftop solar collectors out there.

Not to cast aspersions on your solar guy but... if you have the $$$ he has the systems. If he were thorough he should have shown you some options of cost and performance. Single vs dual axis tracking is just one. A single axis tracker rotates horizontally and the user can optimize collection by adjusting the vertical rotation (lattitude adjust, AKA elevation) two or more times a year. Dead simple. IF you are getting more power than ou need you wouldn't have to adjust them, just set for a good compromise and leave it. You don't see many solar water heater collectors on dual axis trackers do you? (I have never seen a residential application with any tracking on their solar water heating.)

With HVAC most installers can't properly design/size a system so they put in a unit that is at least large enough (and usually oversized). The customer probably doesn't complain because it cools his house. The installer is happy because the bigger the system the more $ for him and no callbacks. Plus since the unit will short cycle it will die prematurely (but likely after warranty expiration) and the homeowner will have the same guy sell them another.

There is an efficiency curve on freon compressors and you don't get to the efficient running till after 30-45 minutes or more. If your unit is oversized it will knock down the temp and shut off in a few min but will have circulated only a small amount of air so dehumidification is quite poor. Longer run times of a properly sized or multispeed unit dehumidify much better and run more efficiently.

There are instances in solar installations that parallel the HVAC example in generator sizing, battery number and size, and on and on.

Consider the catalytic caps for the batteries. They work and help reduce fluid loss. They convert hydrogen to water by catalytically combining it with O2 in the air. Reduces explosion risk too.

Pat
 
   / Solar Power Shed Project #96  
Pat,
I'm not sure about the dual axis on the tracker. I haven't finished my design but I was thinking that I would adjust for winter /summer a few times a year. It would be one or two bolts and an easy adjustment. Day to day I haven't noticed that you gain that much on the winter/summer plane.

Hydrocaps are supposed to be pretty good (I don't have them) but I was also looking at the Water Mizer caps. Have you seen them in action?

RobD
 
   / Solar Power Shed Project #97  
Pat,

I've always heard that it's better to put a smaller sized HVAC unit than commonly used. A simplified example is for a 2,000 square foot house, you'd usually use a 4 tonne unit. But that would mean it's cycling on and off all the time to keep the tempature at the desired setting. A friend told me that for a home 2,000 sq ft home, a 1.5 tonne unit would keep the house just as cool, but run longer and be more efficient.

He knows allot more than I do about these things, but he seems to be in the minority. If I understand what you just wrote, you feel the same way. Is this true in your experience?

Eddie
 
   / Solar Power Shed Project
  • Thread Starter
#98  
Pat,
I'm getting 96 Water Mizer caps on the batteries. I was told they are for hydrogen recovery. Are they what you refer to here?:
Consider the catalytic caps for the batteries. They work and help reduce fluid loss. They convert hydrogen to water by catalytically combining it with O2 in the air. Reduces explosion risk too.
 
   / Solar Power Shed Project #99  
Rob-D said:
Pat,

Hydrocaps are supposed to be pretty good (I don't have them) but I was also looking at the Water Mizer caps. Have you seen them in action?

RobD

Well, I Have seen catalytic caps in use that worked fine BUT I don't recall what brands they were.

They catalytically recombine the hydrogen generated by charging the batteries with atmospheric O2 and the resultant water drips into the battery extending the time interval between having to add water. Since it uses up a good percentage of the hydrogen it recuces the rish of hydrogen explosion. I have never personally seen a battery case explode but wouldn't want to be close enough to see it either. I have seen the vent caps (regular caps not catalytic ones) blown about 40 ft straight up. These were screw in caps and still they went up like mortar shells.

Pat
 
   / Solar Power Shed Project #100  
EddieWalker said:
Pat,

I've always heard that it's better to put a smaller sized HVAC unit than commonly used. A simplified example is for a 2,000 square foot house, you'd usually use a 4 tonne unit. But that would mean it's cycling on and off all the time to keep the tempature at the desired setting. A friend told me that for a home 2,000 sq ft home, a 1.5 tonne unit would keep the house just as cool, but run longer and be more efficient.

He knows allot more than I do about these things, but he seems to be in the minority. If I understand what you just wrote, you feel the same way. Is this true in your experience?

Eddie

Smaller than is commonly used is often good because commonly units are seriously oversized. I can't comment on replacing a "typical" 4 ton with a 1.5 ton in a given size house because there are too many vairables from one 2000 sq ft house to the next.

The real problem is that few sellers and installers of HVAC really know how to do the engineering and at best typically let the MFG or wholsaler tell them what size to use if they go beyond their own sphere of knowlege. Same market forces at work, bigger is more $ profit.

Nothing wrong with experience on the part of the "designer" to help modulate the results of his heat load calcs. You don't just say x # of sq ft gets y # of tons of cooling even in a specific climate zone. Infiltration and actual R-value (performance) of the building envelope is very important. Traditional stud walls do not yield overall R-values of the R-value of the F/G batts (or whatever insulation is used.) R-19 batts in the walls will give walls performing way poorer than R-19 due to heat being conducted through the studs plus whatever infiltration there is plus loads from fenestration.

The ICF portion of my house can be just about heated with a candle and cooled with an ice cube but the traditional stud walls (2x6 on 16 inch centers) of the rest of the hoiuse don't do as well.

So first thing we have seller/installers who make more if they sell a bigger unit and don't have angry customer callbacks. Of course the unknowlegeable customer has a unit that will short cycle itself to death prematurely and not humidify very well and never run long enough to get up on top of the efficiency curve but it will cool the house. Might feel cool AND clammy but it will get cool.

Good dehumidificatioin increases summer comfort and lets you have comfort at a higher thermometer reading (smaller delta T indoors to out) An undersized (or right sized) A/C unit is a terrific dehumidifier. It will have long efficient runtimes and will circulate and recirculate the air through the evaporator, dehumidifying on each pass, before it satisfies the thermostat and shuts off. With a variable or mulltispeed compressor and air handler you can run the A/C almost continuously when it is hot, getting good efficiency and dehumidification and the compressor and air handler only throttle up when needed. The compressor speeds up or goes to full speed when it can't satisfy the thermostat at a slower run speed and the air handler speeds up as required to avoid freezing up the evaporator (moving the air through the evaporator faster doesn't let it chill so much and reduces freeze up so these units often run slow till they start to freeze up and then run faster for a while to fix the problem and then throttle back again.

Houses traditionally got there fresh air from random infiltration due to sloppy building practices in the envelope. Better to make the house tight (pop your ears when sonmeone slams an outer door, OK mild exaggeration) and then use an engineered on purpose ventilation system to supply fresh air and exhaust the stale air. Today's modern materials have so much formaldahyde and such you need to get a good supply of fresh air. An ERV or HRV (Energy Recovery Ventilator or Heat Recovery Ventilator) is a great way to get fresh air and not run up the heating or cooling bill. Boitgh ventilator systems handle sensible heat but only the one handles latent heat. I'm on the border climatically where either is OK.

I get fresh air 24-7 for less than an amp and a very small impact on heating and cooling costs. Normally you can't hear the unit run but when the humidistat hits its set point it goes to high speed and then you can just barely hear it. I have a booster fan in the exhaust side for when the exhausted air from the shower is high humidity it kicks in till the humidity drops back down. It only runs when you take a long hot shower or there are two showers in a row and then for just a few min.

For interesting reading, look into heat pipes used as adjuncts to an evaporator in a freon/compressor type A/C application. Great increase in dehumidification for almost no increase in run costs (just a little more resistance to air flow through the evaporator when equipped wilth heat pipes.) It is almost like getting something for nothing.

Pat
 

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