Solar Power

[GlueGuy]

I just read about that flying machine, but I can't remember the name of it either /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif. Pretty impressive though. I do remember little tidbits about it: Flying altitude 100,000' (highest flying prop-driven anything). Ten electric engines. Wingspan 245'.

The GlueGuy

 

[billboe]

GlueGuy, your memory was better than mine...

I did do a Yahoo search ("solar wing fuel cell fly") and found lots of info. It seems the latest NASA machine is called "Helios". Here are a couple of links if anyone wants more info:

http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/trc/hawaii/extreme_altitudes.pdf
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1109/index.html
http://powerweb.lerc.nasa.gov/psi/DOC/spuav.html

Enjoy!

Billboe...

 

[GlueGuy]

Billboe,

Thanks for those links!

The GlueGuy

 

[patrickg]

Sorry but I fail to understand the logic of having to consume more and more to make it look like your conserving power by adding solar. The balance needs to be tipped in favor of solar by reducing cost of solar not consuming so wildly that solar becomes cost effective. Am I missing something? Isn't this like recommending driving like a total maniac to make your insurance more cost effective (my appology to any BMW pilolting yuppie larva with a friend having the patience to explain this put down)?

Lowering consumption would save money for you directly without a large investment, a real quick payback, often in under three years even using net present value calculations to get at the true cost of the investment. The power you didn't use would still be available for others to help gratify your alltruistic needs, feel PC, green, whatever.

I'm not anti solar or cold fusion or anti anyway to get energy for a better life without destroying the planet or robbing our fellow inhabitants, but remain convinced that in many/most on-grid instances it just doesn't pay unless your currency is in feeling green, PC, and or probably fooling yourself. Sure wish it weren't so, really truly I do.

Even gorilla installations (illegal grid intertie, irrespective of quality of engineering or following code are often marginal at best). You can however, on a clear day, if you turn everything you own off and unplug all the parasitic phantom loads like VCR's, TV's, Microwaves, etc that use power when "OFF", actually see your Watt Hour meter spin backwards! Whoopee! What is that worth to you?

Patrick, headed to closet to put on kevlar-nomex underwear.

 

[GlueGuy]

You missunderstand me if you think I was telling people to consume more to make it look like solar was cost effective. Of course not using it in the first place is probably the best choice. We have been doing a lot of that at our house, but we are at the point of diminishing returns.

In fact, I was running more numbers today, and it is cost effective today at the lowest usage price we can get here (11 cents a KWH). Timeline is kinda long, but it is still within the warranty period of the solar cells. We actually use relatively little electricity already (compared to almost everyone I know), but we still have our usage above the baseline rate, and are paying almost 14 cents a KWH for those premium KWHs.

What I was trying to say was that if for some reason, you can't get your usage down, the payback time comes a lot quicker. Our next door neighbor is an excellent example of someone that is genetically predisposed to consume too much electricity.

The GlueGuy

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

Glueguy,

From what I've read about solar, the cells usually outlast the warranty period by a long time. If they're going to go bad, it's going to be relatively soon after installation and use. Batteries are the big problem. They must be monitored, fussed with and kept balanced. You're sitting on a mountain top, any chance of wind power? Still have the batteries, but a windchanger is usually less expensive that a similar solar system.

Still, from where I'm setting, the only reason for me to put in my own power system would be to free myself of the grid. If the cost for a system to power my digs is $20,000.00 and my average monthly bill is $50.00, I'm not sure I'd be alive to see the payoff. Even with my own system, I would still have power outages, (blown batteries, repairs, etc.) although they would hopefully be PLANNED outages /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif.

SHF

 

[GlueGuy]

I'm not intending to install batteries at all. Too expensive to buy, too expensive to maintain, and too much maintenance.

Much cheaper and simpler to just install a grid-tie system. Have to have an inverter anyway, and the additional expense to make a computerized inverter into a grid-tie is almost inconsequential.

We have looked at wind power too. The advantage for us would be that it would produce most of its power when the solar is down. The best wind time for us is also in the winter. Only down side is that it would be higher maintenance than the solar system.

Who knows? I might do one of each. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

The GlueGuy

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

GlueGuy,

Have you checked with the Utility to find out the requirements for the grid intertie? Out your way, they're desperate enough they may let you hook in just about anything. Here, I've heard (but haven't investigated to actually find out), that the utilities want a pretty good sized bond put up in case the grid intertie system lights up a lineman. (ie, General power outage, but your system is still running and pumping juice into the local grid, unlucky lineman--ZAP--/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif).

One of these days I'm going to have to check on it to find out exactly what the requirements are. I DO know there are a lot of illegal systems that have been installed and grid intertied, so, I am assuming the requirements for connection are not just in place here.

SHF

 

[GlueGuy]

The grid-tie systems are pretty standard now. The local utility requires that they meet a specific standard as far as safety disconnects go. Also needs to be signed off by a licensed electrician. It's no big deal in that regard. Oh, no bonds required.

The GlueGuy

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

Been a lot of changes in the electricity market. Heard on the news this morning that they are warning of rolling blackouts somewhere out east now. What the Solar industry really needs is a larger market. Bigger market, more consumers; more consumers more R&D; more R&D, lower prices and better output. The systems have been improving, but very slowly. They are still more stable that windchargers, which, (you are correct) require a much higher maintenance and repair schedule. I also wonder what would happen if one of those blades came off in a high wind? Could get messy. There's some little ones 300-600 watts that look pretty good and are pretty cheap. But the heart of the machines is still little more than an alternator.

SHF

 

[GlueGuy]

I would imaging that there is a moderate amount of danger in high wind, but most of them have systems for managing high wind conditions (like a tail that moves the blades obliqly (spell?) to the wind as the velocity goes up). In this case the generator is able to extract power in high wind without causing harm to itself.

The other issue with wind generators is the noise factor. Wouldn't want one too close to the house because of the almost-constant thrumming that they make.

Also consider that a generator only can be relied upon for about 1/3 of its rated capacity. That means that a 300W unit is actually more like 100W. 1KW is going to give you your 300W, and a 2KW for your 600W.

The GlueGuy

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

GlueGuy,

The rated watt output usually varies based on speed of the wind. Somewhere around here I've got a book about it that lists the output based on wind speed. Usually, output kicks in around 12-18 mph and increases dramatically for every 1 or 2 mph increase in wind speed. 12-18 doesn't sound like much, but its just below a good breeze. I spent a summer as ground crew for a hot air balloon and learned real respect for a 12 mph wind when it dragged the half-inflated ballon, basket and screaming old me across a football field. It was kinda like trying to hold onto a bus.

Michigan is (I think) rated as the 5th windiest state. Also #2 in lightning deaths. There are quite a few wind generators around here. There's one place a few miles from the farm that has 5 windchargers and appears to be totally off the grid. North of here there's a commerical plant churning out power off the bay. Just not sure how they are handling the lightning strikes.

SHF

 

[patrickg]

OK, Glue Guy, if you tell me about your John Denver signature model death trap I'll take back one of the terrible things I said. How about the slur on the intelligence of the BMW driving yuppie larva who would have to have a friend explain the put down because a yupie larva would be incapable of "getting it" on their own?

Well, all righty then, "It ain't so and probably couldn't be so". How's that? Of course the real reason is that the BMW driving yuppie larva doesn't have any friends. Can you say incorrigible?

If you have or can get the money to spend to put in a meaningful solar electric installation then bless you, GO FOR IT. If there were more people of such a persuasion, the world would be a better place and the grid wouldn't be stressed so closely to the breaking point. If you do elect to proceed, please share the project information with us at the least or better yet write it up for "Home Power", a really fine magazine, and get a little something for the effort.
Take a look at a couple issues and get a feel for the style. While perusing the mag you might get some good ideas of what others have done and what the economics of their projects were like. It always helps to have a good starting point from which to make improvements rather than proceed as I often do with a surplus of brute force and awkwardness.

Patrick

 

[GlueGuy]

Patrick,

Ugh, low blow! /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif What you got against John Denver? Know why he crashed? He was too short! (I'm serious!)

What'd you like to know about the EZ? Great little airplane. Goes a long ways between pit stops. A lot farther than my bladder...

So, I think the payback is reasonable for the solar. That's only part of the equation. I also think it's good for the rest of the people on the grid if I can add to the available power during the high sun. That's not a bad thing even though it's a bit altruistic. I also think it will lower demand from the out-of-state gougers enough to keep power prices lower a little longer than what would otherwise be possible (this is an un-measurable part of the cost equation).

Thanks for the tip on Home Power.

The GlueGuy

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

GlueGuy,

The thing I don't understand about the grid intertie systems with no battery bank, is that they will only generate power during the day (solar systems), when your usage is lower, but not at night, when you use lights, stereo, TV, etc. So, in the event of a blackout, the system would give you some limited ability during the day (probably not enough for air, water pump, washer, etc), but nothing at night. Basically, your only payback is the lower energy costs during the day.

I think that's the limiting factor. If the cost to install were low enough to allow installation of a large enough system to completely free the house while the sun shines, a lot more people would be installing home systems.

SHF

 

[looch]

Has anyone investigated the use of those (new?) flywheel contraptions? I had some new uninterruptable power supply requirements for work and saw an article on these things. Never really considered them as we have a back-up generator so when the grid goes dead we only have about a 15 second delay. They look like a neat alternative to batteries. I imagine they do require a bit of maintenance.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

1.7 gigawatt!? Anyone know where I can get a used DeLorean?

 

[skent]

When we moved in (where we are now) we had power failures almost weekly. All it had to do is 'LOOK' like it was gunna storm and the power went off. We lost power 15 Hours BEFORE it started snowing for the Blizzard of 96.

So I bought a generator. Best d--- generator ever made!

Ever since we bought it, we haven't lost power - even thru high winds, hale, snow and huricanes.

Best part is it will last forever since it never gets used (except for testing).

Now if only a snow blower would work like that!

Steve

 

[patrickg]

Hey GlueGuy, I thought you wanted to be PC! Then where do you get off calling John Denver short, he was Vertically Challenged! I did use Human Element Range Extenders on long xcountry flts and especially soaring were we would literally pack a picknic lunch to take with us. My 65 gal after market diesel tank on Ram 3500 lasts way longer than I do as well.

Anyway about solar power, from what I understand then this is a philosophical/political/feel-good statement with an impact similar to bailing the Titanic with a thimble. It shows that YOU at least care enough to do SOMETHING. I'm that way about some things as well. I will carry a few pieces of trash (gum wrapper, obsolete note, paper towls, or whatever) all day with my pockets bulging before I would even consider a less than totally satisfactory disposal site. This while in the midst of literers for whom my ill feelings greatly surpass BMW piloting yuppie larvae.

"Home Power" is the best of the genre, not to take anything away from Mother Earth or the others but it is just well done with full disclosure of costs, schematics, sources of parts and supplies etc. It is written in a style and at a level that communicates clearly and concisely the needed information witout talking down to you or getting overly profesorial. You don't need an engineering degree to follow the narrative of a project but as an engineer/scientist I can attest that it doesn't read like it was aimed at 6th grade dropouts or ever asks anyone if they could be a tree, what kind of tree would they be.

The gorilla installation repors appeal to the inner anarchist.

In case you haven't read anything that addresses variable orinetation of the panels WITHOUT any auto tracker mechanism. Buy or design your mounts to allow easy adjustment for seasonal variations in the sun's altitude (degrees above horizon at local apparent noon or whatever) It will increase your annual energy harvest and only takes a few minutes every few months. Still way cheaper than any of the auto trackers, single or two axis.

Finally, I really liked John Denver. I never heard anything about his height contributing to his crash. I heard he was having strenuous personal problems and there was speculation that it really wasn't accidental. Of course it could be both, he could have been despondent over his vertically challenged condition.

Patrick

 

[GlueGuy]

Patrick,

I don't know about bailing the Titanic with a thimble. If 1/2 of the homeowners in CA put up a 1KW solar system, there would be no "power crisis" in CA. In fact, so far it looks like the 10-12% conservation effort is paying off here. I have no delusions of making the conservation effort permanent, but there could be ways to incent people to conserve better. Time-based charges might be one way, but there are probably a bunch. I do think though, that enough solar systems get set up, and we might have a solution to the biggest part of the problem. Heck, CA already produces somewhere between 10% and 15% of its power through solar/wind. We've been a leader before. We might do it again.

A neighbor has an inside source on trackers, but even with the "special deal", it still works out better to just run a few extra panels. Likewise, just adjusting the panel angle 4 times a year is a lot cheaper, and pretty darn effective.

As for John Denver, the problem he had was (1)the fuel selector valve was behind his shoulder, (2) in order to reach it, he would inadvertantly step on one of the rudders. Presumption is that he was trying to switch tanks after the engine quit, and didn't realize he'd gone into a steep bank while his eyes were focused on the selector (facing backward). Since he was only a few hundred feet above the water, and he was going ~~ 150 knots or so, it only took a couple seconds to hit the drink. Plane was virtually disintegrated (him too). I can did up the NTSB report if you'd like.

The GlueGuy