solenoid

[Tinkerer]

Okay, I promise this is the last question on my 640's starting solenoid. If I can't get it figured out, I guess I will just convert to 12v and forget the whole darn thing!

I get nothing when I hit the strarter button. To start it,I must jump across the solenois posts. I have replaced the solenoid, a three wire one, with another three wire unit off of another 640. I know it works, since I saw the other tractor start with it. Looking at the wiring diagram, I am sure I have it wired right. A wire from the solenoid to the starter, a wire from the battery (negative) to the solenoid, a wire from the solenoid to the regulator (?), and a wire from the solenoid to the starter button.

When I first got the tractor, I could get a spark by touching the wire to the starter button on anything metal, noe I get nothing when I do that. Why? Could the problem be the starter button? I am getting really tired of having to get off of the tractor and jump across the poles to get the blooming thing started!

 

[Soundguy]

Well.. first off.. .that 3 terminal 6v pos grnd solenoid.. should only have 3 wires.. and there should be NO connection to the regulator.

If still pos. grnd... the neg cable from the battery to one big lug, the other big lug to the starter post. The little terminal.. which by the way MUST point toward the tractor block, has a wire that goes to the big thumb switch. All that thumb switch does is ground the wire... theoretically, you could take that small wire off, and just touch it to the tracor to crank the starter. And the 3rd little terminal has to point toward the block, as the solenoid is wired 'internally hot', and that is dependent on which side of the solenoid is hooked to the battery.

My gues is that you have the solenoid backwards, or that the thumb switch is no longer making contact.. or that this extra wire you have from the regulator is causing the problem.

To test the thumb switch and solenoid.. hook it up like it is sopposed to and hit the thumb switch.. by the way.. it will only start in neutral.. it is interlocked. If it doesnt.. take a jumper wire, and jumper that small wire to ground.. again.. making sure you are in neutral.

Since you say the solenoid works on another tractor , and that you can jump to get the starter working, then that isolates the problem to:
1, instalation
2, thumb switch
3, small wire from thumb switch to the solenoid.


I've got a 2n, an 8n, and a NAA That 3 wire solenoid was used for lotsa years.... let us know what you find.

Soundguy

 

[jinman]

Everyone of those old Fords that I've ever seen originally had a solenoid with a button on the bottom. Pressing the button would manually close the solenoid contacts. That was what was on my Jubilee until it suddenly welded the contacts one day and the starter kept going after the engine started /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif. I had to pull the battery cable to stop it. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif The replacement solenoid did not have the button. Anyhow, if your solenoid is one of the originals, it might have the button which could save you jumpering around the solenoid. Actually, getting the solenoid wired correctly as Soundguy said is what you really want to do. If the solenoid is not off another old Ford tractor, the solenoid may not be wired like the original. I'd wire up the large solenoid terminals and then use a voltmeter to check which small terminal has the 6 volts. That's the terminal you want to run to your starter switch. You can check it by grounding it to the tractor to see if the starter works before you do the final hook-up.

 

[Soundguy]

Great follow-up post!

Soundguy

 

[jinman]

...not that great /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif It just dawned on me that his whole problem is probably that the wire from the battery and the wire to the starter are reversed. I should have told him to use a voltmeter on resistance scale to check continuity from the starter terminal to the small wire. If he reads continuity, the main solenoid terminals need to be reversed as I think you indicated in your post. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

It's amazing what half a day of thinking a problem through can produce when your old and slow like me. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Tinkerer]

Okay, here is what I have found so far. First of all, I was wrong on where all the wire went. I said one went to the regulator, it goes to the ammeter.

I reversed the starter and battery wires as advised and got....nothing. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif I checked the center post with a volt meter and get no voltage, not even any continuity between it or the the other posts. Shouldn't there be continuity?

I may just throw in the toweland wire up a push button swithch between the starter and battery cable. Hate to admit defeat, but I am thoroughly perplexedby this. It has to be something simple I am overlooking, but I sure can't think of what it is. Is the solenoid from an 8N the same as the one that goes on a 640? If so I can try one more time by taking one off of a buddies tractor. I hate to buy yet ANOTHER solenoid, I am up to 4 right now!

I will check some more tomorrow when I get home fdrom work. Too cold now, minus 5 and my barn is unheated. In fact, this thing is bothering me so much, I may take half a day leaveto work on it in actual daylight!

My wife finds this all very amusing, apparently I am "becoming obsessed" with it.

 

[jinman]

Kirt, the best I can offer you right now is a schematic of your electrical system (attached). If you look at the starting motor relay (solenoid), you will see that there really is a wire going to the ammeter as you indicated, from the battery side of the solenoid. The other large connector goes to the starter. If you have only one small terminal it has to go to ground through your starter button. Internal to the starter solenoid, the small terminal goes through an electromagnetic coil to the battery side of the solenoid. When you ground the small terminal, current goes to ground and the electromagnet closes the solenoids contacts. It's just that simple. I'm as baffled as you are, because if there is no continuity from the small terminal to either of the large terminals, it's indicating that the solenoid is bad. Did you check the same thing on your old solenoid? You didn't get them swapped by mistake did you? Hey, I'm grasping at straws....sorry.

Also, are you sure your battery terminals are clean? I know you said the starter worked if you jumpered around the solenoid, but could that have been a one-time fluke? If your terminals are dirty, that could be the reason you are having problems now.

Don't let this get you too frustrated. Keep telling yourself there has to be a logical solution. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

Kirt, the advise you have from Soundguy and Jim should have got you going so something else must be going on here. First I recall a safety switch on the top of the transmission in series with the starter button. The starter button shorts the coil of the solenoid to ground through the safety switch.

The original solenoid was a four terminal device connected as follows:

1. Large post to battery
2. Another large post to starter motor.
3. Small post connected to the large post that is connected to the battery(this is connected to the ammeter and the tractor ignition)
4. Another post which is connected thru the safety switch to the starter button.


I would not assume the solenoid you pulled from another 640 has the same functionality as the original. First it is a three terminal and an alternate coil configuration is possible. If you found no continuity between the large posts and the small post. Check for continuity (several ohms) between the small post and the solenoid case. If so this solenoid requires power to the small post as opposed to ground to actuate.

 

[Soundguy]

Pull that solenoid of fthe tractor, and check it on the bench with your ohm meter and a battery. Wire the ohm meter across the two pig studs.. set for continuity Juse a jumper wire to hook one big post to -. Choose the big post to the right o fthe little post, with the little post facing away from you. Next hook a jumper wire to the little post and touch it to the + side of the battery. When you do this, the ohm meter should swing to zero.. or next to zero, and you should hear a click from the solenoid. If it does click and no ohm meter reading.. I assume the contacts are burnt up inside. If it doesn't do anything, for the heck of it, swap it around and try it again with the little post facing you.. etc.

The starter interlock safety feature is nice.. if you can find a way to not bypass it it would be great.

As a worst possible scenerio, if you get yet another solenoid.. get a 4 post isolated one... not a 4 post resistor bypass one.

Wire the big studs to the battery, and the starter.. doesn't matter which one where. Then one little post will wire to the - battery stud on the side of the solenoid with a little jumper.. the other little stud is going to + ( ground ) thru your thumb switch. That keeps the starter interlock in place.

Now there's a thought... use your ohm meter to check the thumb switch. check from ground to the little screw tab on it... when you push the button, meter should swing to zero.. or next to zero... if it doesn't.. make sure you are not in gear, and try again.. if still noting.. you have a bad thumb switch... they are replaceable for about 20 bucks.. and you have to pull the tranny top cover.. If you do.. watch out for a little detent ball held in with a spring for a shifter rail.. don't let it fly or drop into the tranny.. just ease everything up to take the spring tension off slowly. At this point you can also inspec the interlock mechanism under the tranny cover to make sure it isn't 'broke' preventing starting by blocking the switch.. etc.

Soundguy

Soundguy

 

[Tinkerer]

Okay, update time! There is good news and bad news /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I believe I have, with your help, solved the solenoid problem. I hooked it up just as Soundguy suggested, and it works fine. I get voltage where I shouls and I can definitely hear the solenoid clicking now.

The bad news is that my starter now seems to have gone belly up! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif This has actually been coming for a while now. For the past several months it has been necessary to tap the starter occassionally with the handle of a large screw driver to get it to turn over. Now it won't do anything at all, tap or no tap. I am getting voltage to the starter now, so I feel confident that the problem is now with the starter.

Which brings me to my next question. Is there some special trick to getting the starter off? I removed the cable and the three bolts, but the starter won't come off! I can move it back about 4 inches and turn it, but it won't come off. There is some type of shaft that goes from the starter itself on past the engine flywheel. Is it necessary to take the oil filter canister off, after draing the oil, to get the starter off? I assume I can get the starter re-built when I get it off.

I am going to the NH dealership tomorrow to get me a real manual. Right now I have the IT manual and it is kind of light on many crucial details. It doesn't even have a picture of the starter in the manual. I may be somewhat mechanica and "handy", but with this tractor I am a real greenhorn!

Jinman, you were right about how the solenoid works. I was just making the thing way more complicated than it had to be, I sometimes have a knack for that.

 

[Soundguy]

Great news about the solenoid.. now at least you don't have to feel like you are going crazy.

As for the starter, there should only be 2 bolts.. long ones.. they go all the way thru the starter into the casting. Caution.. do not remove the bolts from the starter housing, as the end plate is the brush holder, and is completely seperate from the field housing, and the bolts keep it lined up. If you pull the bolts out, and the armature travels more than an inch forward, the brushed pop out of the holders, and then you have to remove the brush guard , and cuss for an hour trying to slide hte armature back in while using toothpicks to hold all the brushes back in.

To remove my starter, I had to
1 loosten the bolts so they were out of the casting.. but still in the starter.( they only theread in about an inch into the casting.. Then removed the round thin sheath covering the brushes. I removed the block drain petcock, and then remove dthe bolts holding the oil filter canister.. but did not have to remove the cannister or the lines. The steel lines flex enough to get the inch or som of movement you need. When pulling the starter out, as soon as the starter is clear of the casting by 1/2 inch.. take a 7/16? nut and thread onto one o fthe long screws... this keeps the starter from falling into 3 pieces in your hand. Next, angle the rear of the starter toward the block.. in fact, let the rear edge of the starter contact the block,.. this is why you removed the drain petcock. The it should slide out.. if it hangs a bit, angle the starter down a bit.. but still towards the block. The bendix drive on these starters is actually fixed on to the end of the long starter armature, and engages the back of the flywheel. So when it starts, the bendix moves 'in' towards the starter, and then spins back 'out' towards the end of the shaft when the engine starts. The end of the bendix has a big tension spring on it.. and this is what has to clear the ring gear on the way out. Some tracors that have had the starter changed before have had the casting filed down at the 2' position, if you are looking into the starter hole. this greatly helps instalation and removal.. but it is doable without the filing, as the ford mechanics installed in in the assembly line, as is.

Also.. the I&T fo-4 manual is just about as good as it gets. The 8n owners manual is well.. useless. There is an 8n shop manual.. but is hard to tract down. I would try
www.n-news.com
If there is a reprint onthe shop manual from ford.. they will have it.

In the i&t manual, in paragraph 81? there is 1 drawing of the drive and starter.. not great but better than nothing.
Also, there is still available a master parts catalog that has all the exploded diagrams for the 8n, 9n, and 2n. Cost is 20 bucks.. n-news has it. Here's a tip. to save the 20 bucks
Go to:
www.dennis-carpenter.com
He is pretty much the leader in re-pro parts for fords. He bought the patent rights to reproduce the ford parts. He even bought much of the original tooling. His parts are guaranteed to be 'just like the original'. Anyway.. he has a thick catalog.. you can get via email or downlod it as a pdf file.. either are free.. the mailed copy may take a week.. the pdf file is available as fast as you can download it. ( it is 6.6 megs )
Besides the catalog showing what parts you can order
( virtually any part ont he tractor ).. it has 90% of the exploded diagrams from the MPC... it is like getting the MPC for free... plus a parts list.

I have a pic of an old ford starter. it should give you an idea of what I'm talking about. Just picture it like this. The flywheel is situated between bendix on the end of the shaft, and the starter.. so you have to swing it out a bit to clear it.

In certain cases, the bendix sticks inthe flywheel, and you have to put the tractor in 4th gear, and rock it back and forth to get the starter drive to spring free.

I quick edit here. For some reason I thought wwere were talking about a 8n. The NAA-6xx 8xx starter is slightly different... but not too much. The mounting flange is different. My master parts catalog still only shows 2 bolts.. not 3, and uses a similar looking starter drive. Also.. the manual is not the fo-4 or the fo-19.. not sure what it is for a 6xx series. Also, not sur ethat there is a ford shop manual available for a 6xx either. But there IS a master parts catalog available. It covers the NAA 6xx and 8xx. I have one. and just looked it over. It only shows 2 mounting bolts as well. Though I don't have a 6xx to run out and verify that. These re-print manuals are not always 100% accurate.. etc.
Keep in mind this pic is of a starter from a 48-52 model.. not a 55 model like the 640.. but it is only slightly different at the mounting flange.

hope this helps.

Soundguy

 

[higgy]

Soundguy

That is a excelent source of parts. I did not have that one and they have several parts that I need for my restoration.

Thanks a million

Dane

 

[jinman]

Kirt, my service manual says to remove the oil filter, electrical cable, and the three bolts and lockwashers from the starter where it attaches to the bell housing flange. It then says to lift the starter motor from the engine. That's all the instructions it gives. As you know, it may not be that easy. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Hopefully by the time you read this post you will have your Service Manual on order. If not, the part number is: 40060090. I think that's a New Holland number. There are five pages in the manual that describe testing and disassembly/reassembly of the starter, brushes, bearings, and bendix drive. If you can't get the manual, I can send you these pages. If I were doing it, I think I'd just try to get it rebuilt at a starter shop, but that's just me. You might want all the "fun" for yourself. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Tinkerer]

My local NH dealer is supposed to call me tomorrow with the price on their service manual. I went in yesterday and they don't know the price, they have to call the company first. Being that some of those manuals can get extremely pricey, I thought I would like to know how much before I place an order!

I think I will just have a starter shop try their hand at the re-build. I have no real desire for that kind of "fun"!

 

[jinman]

Kirt, I think my manual was around $50, but that was almost 10 years ago. I'm attaching the first page out of the Starter Motor section which shows the complete assembly/disassembly. There are special tools for driving out bushings and I think a starter/generator shop would have these punches. If your starter is dragging, it might be bearings or it just might need new brushes and the commutator dressed.

I think you will like having that Service Manual. There are lots of pages about the Select-O-Speed transmission /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif, but the rest of the manual is pretty good. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[Tinkerer]

Update. Victory is mine!!

Yesterday I finally got the tractor running. After the solenoid was wired correctly, the starter went out. 75 dollars later it was re-built, but then the battery was dead, and would not re-charge. Yesterday I bought a new 6v battery from TSC and installed it, which is not as easy as it should be with a loader on the tractor. Went to start it after the battery was installed, and got nothing! I looked evrything over and found the wires from the battery to the solenoid were loose, so I tightened them. Now the tractor would turn over but not start /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif After standing there and staring at it a while, I discovered a wire going to the coil was broken, so I replaced it and the tractor fired up on the first crank!

It is a good thing our house and barn cannot be seen by any of our neighbors, they would have thought Ricky Martin was there doing a victory dance /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif By the way, I only know who he is because my wife once watched a video of his /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

My wife was so excited and impressed with my achievement that she almost stopped vaccuuming to watch me demonstrate it. Poor thing, she really needs to control her enthusiasm!

Thanks for all your help in getting this thing fixed. I actually got to use it last night. My brother needed me to pull him out of a mud hole he had gotten his mini van stuck in.

 

[Soundguy]

First, Congrats!

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( battery was dead, and would not re-charge. Yesterday I bought a new 6v battery from TSC and installed it, which is not as easy as it should be with a loader on the tractor )</font>

Though I would rather have more choices for 6v batteries.. I must admit.. TSC has a good price.. 29.99 here in florida.
As as for instalation.. it doesn't get much better without the loader. You either have to finagle it in from the side or the top, and insulate the posts while doing so... not a real fun job.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( By the way, I only know who he is because my wife once watched a video of his )</font>

Sure.. we believe you.. really. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Problems like that are the hardest to diagnose.. when two related and co-dependent systems fail.

Have fun with the tractor.

Soundguy

 

[slowrev]

Who is Ricky Martin ?

 

[Tinkerer]

Yeah the battery was 29.99 here in Indiana as well. TSC and Rural King were the only two places I could find 6v batteries. I suppose one of the auto parts stores may have had them, but the price would probably have been much higher.

Now that she starts and the lift works, it is on to other projects. I have to replace the upper and lower bearings in the steering box, but am waiting for warmer weather!

 

[Soundguy]

I think Napa or carquest may also carry 6v batteries.. but would theink they would be high$. I havn't had any luck finding an auto store ( like autozone ..etc ) that carries 6v batteries anymore.

Soundguy