Some basic questions about tractors

[sros990]

I’m new to tractors and would like to know:

(1)Why are gear driven transmissions considered more efficient and reliable than hydro for heavy duty work? What is considered heavy duty work?—(tilling, plowing?)

(2)How difficult is it to operate tractors with gear transmissions?

(3)What is a Power Beyond Kit?

(4)How many Selective Control Valves do I need if I plan to use a tiller, front end loader, brush hog, blade, and possibly a snow blower. Where should the SCVs be located?

Thanks,

Steve

 

[Bob_Skurka]

I have smaller tractors (24hp and 30hp) and don't have Power Beyond on either so I'll toss that question to someone else.

As for Question (1) a gear transmission is slighly more efficient than a hydro because of the design efficiencies of mechanical connections versus fluid power. Regarding HD work, I'm not so sure that is accurate, as commercial loaders are almost always hydro transmissions, but there are tasks that are better suited to gears and others that are better suited to hydro. Mowing the lawn is easier/faster with a hydro, especially if you have to maneuver the tractor around trees, landscaping, corners, buildings, etc. I wouldn't consider "tilling" with a tiller to be a "gear" job, but tilling with a plow is definately better done with a gear tractor. So is box blading. Front end loader work is more efficient with a hydro.

(2) how difficult is it to operate a gear tractor? Heck, even I can do that and I sell candy to kids and tobacco to people addicted to nicotine, so it can't be too tough to operate a gear machine if I can! I simply prefer hydro for use around my property. But anything I do with a hydro I could do with a gear, but it would take me longer. Then again, I don't pull a plow in the field.

Selective Control Valves are not needed for the implements you are talking about. A tiller will operate off of the PTO and is hooked up to the 3pt hitch. The front end loader will have its own valving and plumbing for its hydraulics. The bush hog will operate off the PTO and is connected to the 3pt hitch. The blade (grader or box) simply hook up the the 3pt hitch and are not powered in any way. A snow blower will be powered by the PTO, and hooked up to the 3pt hitch. It is possible that the chute rotation control is going to be hydraulically controlled (that is an optional feature) it would require a selective control valve (2 hose outlets) at the rear of the machine, that is the normal place to install them. 1 control valve has 2 quick connect hose outlets.


Steve, by the way, please fill in part of your profile. How big is your property, how much mowing will you be doing, how much tilling, how long of a drive do you have to maintain, etc. It will help others who are trying to help you if we know some basics about your potential needs.

 

[RoyJackson]

As Bob has stated, mechanical transmission of power is more efficient then fluid power. Look for a 10 to 15% loss in usable power.

Not, as everything, it's a trade off...hydros are more user friendly just as an automatic tranny in a car is more user friendly then a stick. But, that trade off consumes efficiency.

Gear transmission are simple to use...it's not like you have to upshift as you accelerate. You select the gear best suited for the task at hand. For moving down a street, that might be high gear. It's that simple...

If you expect to do a lot of loader work, the hydro or one of the reverser type gear trannys would be your best bet. Even using gears, I'm reasonably quick..but not as quick as a hydro transmission.

However, I don't want to spend the extra $'s on a hydro... I realize it might take me a bit longer...but not that much longer.

I'd rather spend the money on other implements.

Some folks might try to persuade you a hydro has a higher resale value. I will admit they might be more appealinbg to some folks.
But, as a percenage of the original price, based upon a small sample (two tractors), the resale value was comparable between the hydro and geared machines.

There ya go....

 

[DK35vince]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Regarding HD work, I'm not so sure that is accurate, as commercial loaders are almost always hydro transmissions, )</font>

Most all the commercial loaders I have ever run or been around were torque converter/power shift transmissions.

 

[txloops]

These guys have answered the questions really well, so I will just tell you that I have a manual gear shift on the tractor I just bought and love it. I pondered the Hydro, but after using the shifter....its easy. I have all the implements you just mentioned except for the snowblower. (get a quick attach for your implements!)

790 with all the implements I could find /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[sros990]

From what has been posted so far, it seems that a gear driven tractor would be a better a choice to perform a variety of tasks (plowing/tilling, mowing, road maintenance, loader work, etc.) on a 50 acre “hobby farm”. Although not as convenient as a hydrostatic transmission it is more efficient, less expensive to buy, less expensive to maintain (?) and more reliable. So if I compare a JD 4310, JD 990 and JD 4320, the JD 990 seems to be a better choice. The 990 will provide considerable more traction and power than the 4310, and will be considerably cheaper than the slightly more powerful and more convenient 4320. Is my thinking on this correct? Are there other things I need to consider?

Steve

 

[eee]

less expensive to maintain (?) and more reliable.


Sorry,
but neither one of the above is a proven fact.
I have a hydro and I abuse the heck out of the thing,no problems with my hydro so far.

 

[Tractors4u]

Your kind of comparing apples to oranges when you are comparing the 4310 to the 990. I considered the 990 when I bought my 4310 because there were close in price. The 4310 is 32hp vs the 40hp 990. The 990 is a bit larger also. I have the 4310 with shuttle shift or as Deere calls it, "sync reverser". I think it is a good compromise between hydro and a true gear tractor.

 

[rockyridgefarm]

A buddy of mine bought two reversers tractors at the same time I bought my Hydro. let me see, both of his have been torn down at least twice since then. I will take my hydro any day. (buthis aren't Deeres and his dealer got run outta town...)

power beyond is the plumbing for a backhoe.

Bob had a great answer, but a little nitpicing here... The loader is controled using a Dual Selective Control Valve. And the third function is actually built into it. You have to add a little plumbing and a control. You could use that for angling the chute on a snowblower, or operating the cylinders on a 4in1 bucket.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

<font color="red"> it seems that a gear driven tractor would be a better a choice to perform a variety of tasks (plowing/tilling, mowing, road maintenance, loader work, etc.) </font>

I'm going to have to agree with "roughcut" and his statement. The durability of a hydro is well established. As for your question, well there is a HUGE debate about which is better gear or hydro. We won't solve that here. As for your specific tasks, either machine will do all those jobs. Mowing is often considered best done with a light weight tractor with hydro, and hydro will certainly be faster. Loader work are pretty much considered by many to be hydro tasks, a medium to heavy tractor wtih proper balance via ballast is needed, hydro will be faster than gear. Tilling with a tiller is easy with a hydro or a gear, I've done it both ways, I see no advantage to either transmission for a tiller and it can be done equally well with a light, medium or heavy tractor. Road maintainence (long runs of box blading) is a gear task. Using a moldboard plow to till the earth (something almost none of do) are probably better suited to a heavy tractor with gears.

There are some sophisticated gear machines that are a good compramise between the two transmissions. But in any case, a simple mechanical gear can to any task and a hydro can do any task and you can learn how to use either.

I think the bigger question is how much of that 50 acres is going to be mowed? How long is the driveway to maintain? etc. Let the tasks decide the tractor size, type. If you are maintaining 500' by 12' of driveway, that is an insignificant % of that 50 acres. But if you are mowing 12 acres that is a big deal.



Mike regarding the nitpicking, I didn't realize that JD had that as a function on all their loader models, I know that there are all sorts of things that can be done with various brands, I was giving a basic answer.

 

[rockyridgefarm]

It's OK. Bob, that's why I said nitpicking...

 

[trlong]

Adding my 2 cents (worth about that much) and a little further "nitpicking"... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I now have nearly 230 hr.s on the 4115's Hydrostatic transmission since Spring and have worked the poor little thing pretty hard. I have not had one transmission related problem (nor any others except that warranteed fan belt). I love the hydro and expect to appreciated it even more as the snow is starting to fall and I have 20' x 600' of driveway to blow. However, there could well be a traction advantage of being able to lug down a higher gear to not spin on ice that the hydro may do poorly at...I'll soon find out.

The power beyond is also great for my wood splitter (albeit the 7.9 Gpm makes for a slow piston).

Snowblower and SCV...are we talking rear or front mount? The 47' front mount, I just bought, is controlled by the dual SCV. Just clarifying for this discussion, as I'm sure Mike knows all this. Left/Right on the SCV rotates the chute. Forward/Reverse drops or raises the mount (thereby the blower) AND full forward on the SCV "floats" the blower (which is the recommended position, especially for dirt or gravel surfaces).

For those who already know all this, sorry, I had the 2 cents to spare this a.m. as it's nasty sleet, snow, rain outside and I'm having tractor withdrawal. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[rockyridgefarm]

Excellant info on the snowblower... My son is sure we need one, but snow seldom stays past lunch time here, still...

 

[GaryK]

I have a hydro and its been treated pretty hard, no problems. If you decide to get a JD and plan on getting a FEL, order the dual scv with the machine, they cost a whole lot more to add later on. You might also consider getting power beyond for the rear if you ever want to hook up a topntilt to a box blade later on, its saves jumping off the tractor to adjust the boxblade when grading etc.

 

[turbo36]

As an owner of many hydro machines I wouldn't go any other way, you should drive both and buy what you like. Any talk of one being more reliable then another is just personal opinion, the facts show either will probably outlive the the owner. With cruise control the Hydro's will perform just as well as the gears for all applications. As far as the amount of efficency loss I doubt it is as high as 15% but even if it is you would have to put a lot of hours on in a year to notice any real dent in your pocket book. Around here (West Michigan) the Hydro's move off the lot much faster and at a better re-sale then the gear drives.

 

[rockyridgefarm]

I used my tractor to return something to a neighboring ranch the other day. The guy has a huge spread and lotsa big iron, and has been ranching about 70 years (he's 85, and you just try and keep up with him!). He just marvelled at my tractor, and asked to try it, he said he "always wanted a hydro, they are so wonderful" I can't figure out why he just diden't cut a check... Course, the whole time I am gawking at his big machines...

Whatever you do, be sure an' have fun!

 

[pat32rf]

If you are going to be operating your unit in hilly country,or poor traction such as snow for things like log skidding,trail building, snow clearing I wouldn't even consider a gear box. You can put the power to the ground a lot more gently with a hydro than most clutches, you can start off on an upgrade then speed up as the ground improves without shifting gears and loosing traction or momentum. The Hydro is NOT the same as a automotive tranny with its torque converter which is most efficient at higher rpm. The hydro is a positive displacement hydraulic pump and adjustible motor combination. There is no slippage. There is a bit of heat generated but such is the case with any gearbox. If you have helpers who are new to tractors,they can master a hydro in about 15 seconds- my wife did-now she can do all kinds of little tractor chores without calling me to drive. Maybe on a big farm with a lot of field work the stick shift still rules but I used a 60hp Case and a smaller Massey before I settled on a 4300hydro- No regrets on choice, just dealer. Pat

 

[sros990]

Bob says “let the tasks decide the tractor size, type”.

My tasks on the 50 acres are: (1) plowing/tilling a small home garden, and a ¼ acre food plot for wildlife, (2) maintaining a 1,200 foot gravel driveway, (3) turning manure/compost, hauling gravel and other materials and carrying medium size logs out of the woods, (4) mowing about 4 acres with a brush hog on a regular basis and occasionally mowing 15 acres when the local farmer doesn’t take my hay, (5) drilling post holes, and (6) maybe clearing snow from the driveway either with a snow blower or blade.

It appears that a hydro tractor can handle all of the above tasks efficiently and quickly. But how about PTO HP—Is 25 hp ( such as JD 4310) sufficient for what I’m trying to do, or do I need to give up the convenience of hydro and go with 35hp (JD990)?

Thanks,

Steve

 

[Egon]

I'd say the 25 HP would do you fine. You may find traction will be the biggest issue; not PTO horsepower.

Consult with the dealer on the hydraulic options.

Enjoy the tractor! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Egon