I put up a cedar split rail fence about 7 years ago, some posts are like brand new, others are completely rotted at the ground line, even though they're only 10' apart and the ground conditions appear identical. I bought them all at the same time, same place. Is this the result of coming from different trees, or being stored somewhere before I bought them? I'd like to know how to tell in advance so I don't buy any more duds.
Some posts rot, some don't
- Thread starter BeezFun
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I just had to repair one treated post on my pole barn for the same reason. Been up for 25 years. Don't know why only one rotted off but sure glad it was only one. What seems even stranger is that it was the post in the highest location.
FredH
Platinum Member
I seen the same thing in railroad ties , They were placed in a rectangular shape so I could back my old p/u in between and lift off a old insulated camper / canopy shell . So 8' apart long by maybe 7' apart to the side . The upper rear and lower front ( on the side of a hill ) both were rotted to the point I just pushed them over without the aid of the tractor , while the other 2 required a chain and the use of the backhoe to get pulled out . They were all solid 20 years ago when I purchased and put in the ground , remember the yard guy were I bought them went through like 1.5 units to find 4 solid ones .
Regarding cedar , the split rail type , old farmer behind us has those . There are some that are at least 25 years old and still solid while others are newer and ready to break already . One would not think that with that little of distance there would be much difference in drainage , soil type , but ?????? And ditto about elevation on those , ones at the peak of the ridge , some rotted some not , ones on the bottom seasonal creek bed , some rotted , some not . ???
Fred H.
Regarding cedar , the split rail type , old farmer behind us has those . There are some that are at least 25 years old and still solid while others are newer and ready to break already . One would not think that with that little of distance there would be much difference in drainage , soil type , but ?????? And ditto about elevation on those , ones at the peak of the ridge , some rotted some not , ones on the bottom seasonal creek bed , some rotted , some not . ???
Fred H.
beppington
Elite Member
"Some posts rot, some don't" ... I think you can stop right there. No rhyme or reason to it that I can determine.
We removed four 6"x6" treated pine poles from a very new pole barn (2-3 years old) that had to be moved (previous owner had it installed literally on the property line
): 3 poles looked brand new. On the 4th rot had begun. Can't recall whether termites had started in on it or if it was water damage.
I also removed about 3,400' of old barbed wire fence (I'm guessing 20+ years old) with ~4" round treated wood posts, & in some places the posts would fall apart in your hand, some were gone, turned to dust, but others could just about be re-used if you wanted to. Luck of the draw it seems.
We removed four 6"x6" treated pine poles from a very new pole barn (2-3 years old) that had to be moved (previous owner had it installed literally on the property line
): 3 poles looked brand new. On the 4th rot had begun. Can't recall whether termites had started in on it or if it was water damage.I also removed about 3,400' of old barbed wire fence (I'm guessing 20+ years old) with ~4" round treated wood posts, & in some places the posts would fall apart in your hand, some were gone, turned to dust, but others could just about be re-used if you wanted to. Luck of the draw it seems.
slowzuki
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Cedar is very consistent in our area, the rot is proportional to amount of water. The 200 year old cedar rail fences on our property slope down (rotted poles) then disappear at the wet spots, to reappear on the other side.
In 2003 I asked the old fella who bought our property in 1940 how long the fences had been there, he replied, no idea, they looked exactly the same back then.
In 2003 I asked the old fella who bought our property in 1940 how long the fences had been there, he replied, no idea, they looked exactly the same back then.
MotorSeven
Elite Member
It's the solid red heartwood that is rot resistant. Not all trees have solid red centers & have some of the white sap wood. The white part of cedar will rot away in just a couple of years so that is most likely the issue with those few posts. When you buy them, look at the ends...solid red = bueno!
ctbigman
Bronze Member
Your posts were most likely dip treated, that is just the end dipped in preservative. You should be able to see the line about 24" from the bottom. If any part of the post above the line is below ground, it will rot quickly. I have treated split rail posts the were set correctly with about 1" of treatment above ground that are now about 20 years old.
EddieWalker
Epic Contributor
Nothing wrong with your posts, it's always caused by drainage. The reason they rot is that water stays there.
Most common reason is whent he post if filled, what is used as fill settles over time and you end up with a small bowl around your post. This is VERY COMMON in fences that use dirt for fill, or concrete that is not sloped up the post.
Replace with the same thing, but be sure to get the water away from the post. In my experience, the posts are fine above the ground and below the ground, but at ground level, they are rotten all the way through.
Eddie
Most common reason is whent he post if filled, what is used as fill settles over time and you end up with a small bowl around your post. This is VERY COMMON in fences that use dirt for fill, or concrete that is not sloped up the post.
Replace with the same thing, but be sure to get the water away from the post. In my experience, the posts are fine above the ground and below the ground, but at ground level, they are rotten all the way through.
Eddie
beppington
Elite Member
Eddie: I'm about to put eight brand new 6"x6"x20' posts in the ground for a pole barn. I plan to concrete them for strength. The soil in the area can be anywhere from sand to clay (haven't auger-ed the holes yet), & is right on the edge of floodplain/ wetlands, although we're dry/ drought-ish now, there will be times when the soil is wetter.
Do you have a recommendation on how to concrete, fill or gravel each post? Do I need any gravel? Just fill the entire hole with concrete? Use concrete but also some of the dirt that came out of the hole? Thank you for whatever you can offer.
Do you have a recommendation on how to concrete, fill or gravel each post? Do I need any gravel? Just fill the entire hole with concrete? Use concrete but also some of the dirt that came out of the hole? Thank you for whatever you can offer.
EddieWalker
Epic Contributor
Pole barns are totally different then fences. The roof and walls protect them quite a bit, so your main concern is the part of the post that is on the exterior wall. Make sure you have good drainage and there isn't any standing water!!!!
As for concrete, it's really one of those either or options. Pole barns are self standing, you are not rellying on the pole to hold the building up. The purlins, siding and roof all combine to hold it together. Just like table standing on it's own. The poles anchor it in place and add considerable strength, but if built properly, and the weather was always perfect, without any wind, then the building would stand just fine without the poles in the ground.
The advantage to a pole barn is that those poles in the ground make it easier and faster to build because you don't have to deal with a foundation, or anchoring the building to that foundation.
The friction from compacting the post with dirt is plenty for any pole barn. Concete on a pole barn post to me is over kill and not needed in most cases. Since you are in FL, hurricanes are going to dictate what you need and how deep you need to go. But I bet you will lose a roof long before your poles come out of the ground no matter how you anchor them.
Everything I've read suggests that you want to keep the ends of your poles off of the soil. Loose gravel at the bottom of the hole or a concrete cookie is supposed to accmoplish this. I have my doubts becasue to me, that creates a place for water to go and remain. Water is the enemy. The dryer the better.
I've pulled and replaced quite a few wood posts and I have never seen one rotten fron the end. I think that the theory is fine, but in the real world, it's just an extra expense that doesn't accomplish anything. Stick the treated post in the ground, pack it with clay and keep it dry. You will be long dead before that post ever needs to be replaced!!!!
Eddie
As for concrete, it's really one of those either or options. Pole barns are self standing, you are not rellying on the pole to hold the building up. The purlins, siding and roof all combine to hold it together. Just like table standing on it's own. The poles anchor it in place and add considerable strength, but if built properly, and the weather was always perfect, without any wind, then the building would stand just fine without the poles in the ground.
The advantage to a pole barn is that those poles in the ground make it easier and faster to build because you don't have to deal with a foundation, or anchoring the building to that foundation.
The friction from compacting the post with dirt is plenty for any pole barn. Concete on a pole barn post to me is over kill and not needed in most cases. Since you are in FL, hurricanes are going to dictate what you need and how deep you need to go. But I bet you will lose a roof long before your poles come out of the ground no matter how you anchor them.
Everything I've read suggests that you want to keep the ends of your poles off of the soil. Loose gravel at the bottom of the hole or a concrete cookie is supposed to accmoplish this. I have my doubts becasue to me, that creates a place for water to go and remain. Water is the enemy. The dryer the better.
I've pulled and replaced quite a few wood posts and I have never seen one rotten fron the end. I think that the theory is fine, but in the real world, it's just an extra expense that doesn't accomplish anything. Stick the treated post in the ground, pack it with clay and keep it dry. You will be long dead before that post ever needs to be replaced!!!!
Eddie