I put up a cedar split rail fence about 7 years ago, some posts are like brand new, others are completely rotted at the ground line, even though they're only 10' apart and the ground conditions appear identical. I bought them all at the same time, same place. Is this the result of coming from different trees, or being stored somewhere before I bought them? I'd like to know how to tell in advance so I don't buy any more duds.
Some posts rot, some don't
- Thread starter BeezFun
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I just had to repair one treated post on my pole barn for the same reason. Been up for 25 years. Don't know why only one rotted off but sure glad it was only one. What seems even stranger is that it was the post in the highest location.
FredH
Platinum Member
I seen the same thing in railroad ties , They were placed in a rectangular shape so I could back my old p/u in between and lift off a old insulated camper / canopy shell . So 8' apart long by maybe 7' apart to the side . The upper rear and lower front ( on the side of a hill ) both were rotted to the point I just pushed them over without the aid of the tractor , while the other 2 required a chain and the use of the backhoe to get pulled out . They were all solid 20 years ago when I purchased and put in the ground , remember the yard guy were I bought them went through like 1.5 units to find 4 solid ones .
Regarding cedar , the split rail type , old farmer behind us has those . There are some that are at least 25 years old and still solid while others are newer and ready to break already . One would not think that with that little of distance there would be much difference in drainage , soil type , but ?????? And ditto about elevation on those , ones at the peak of the ridge , some rotted some not , ones on the bottom seasonal creek bed , some rotted , some not . ???
Fred H.
Regarding cedar , the split rail type , old farmer behind us has those . There are some that are at least 25 years old and still solid while others are newer and ready to break already . One would not think that with that little of distance there would be much difference in drainage , soil type , but ?????? And ditto about elevation on those , ones at the peak of the ridge , some rotted some not , ones on the bottom seasonal creek bed , some rotted , some not . ???
Fred H.
beppington
Elite Member
"Some posts rot, some don't" ... I think you can stop right there. No rhyme or reason to it that I can determine.
We removed four 6"x6" treated pine poles from a very new pole barn (2-3 years old) that had to be moved (previous owner had it installed literally on the property line
): 3 poles looked brand new. On the 4th rot had begun. Can't recall whether termites had started in on it or if it was water damage.
I also removed about 3,400' of old barbed wire fence (I'm guessing 20+ years old) with ~4" round treated wood posts, & in some places the posts would fall apart in your hand, some were gone, turned to dust, but others could just about be re-used if you wanted to. Luck of the draw it seems.
We removed four 6"x6" treated pine poles from a very new pole barn (2-3 years old) that had to be moved (previous owner had it installed literally on the property line
): 3 poles looked brand new. On the 4th rot had begun. Can't recall whether termites had started in on it or if it was water damage.I also removed about 3,400' of old barbed wire fence (I'm guessing 20+ years old) with ~4" round treated wood posts, & in some places the posts would fall apart in your hand, some were gone, turned to dust, but others could just about be re-used if you wanted to. Luck of the draw it seems.
slowzuki
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Cedar is very consistent in our area, the rot is proportional to amount of water. The 200 year old cedar rail fences on our property slope down (rotted poles) then disappear at the wet spots, to reappear on the other side.
In 2003 I asked the old fella who bought our property in 1940 how long the fences had been there, he replied, no idea, they looked exactly the same back then.
In 2003 I asked the old fella who bought our property in 1940 how long the fences had been there, he replied, no idea, they looked exactly the same back then.
MotorSeven
Elite Member
It's the solid red heartwood that is rot resistant. Not all trees have solid red centers & have some of the white sap wood. The white part of cedar will rot away in just a couple of years so that is most likely the issue with those few posts. When you buy them, look at the ends...solid red = bueno!
ctbigman
Bronze Member
Your posts were most likely dip treated, that is just the end dipped in preservative. You should be able to see the line about 24" from the bottom. If any part of the post above the line is below ground, it will rot quickly. I have treated split rail posts the were set correctly with about 1" of treatment above ground that are now about 20 years old.
EddieWalker
Epic Contributor
Nothing wrong with your posts, it's always caused by drainage. The reason they rot is that water stays there.
Most common reason is whent he post if filled, what is used as fill settles over time and you end up with a small bowl around your post. This is VERY COMMON in fences that use dirt for fill, or concrete that is not sloped up the post.
Replace with the same thing, but be sure to get the water away from the post. In my experience, the posts are fine above the ground and below the ground, but at ground level, they are rotten all the way through.
Eddie
Most common reason is whent he post if filled, what is used as fill settles over time and you end up with a small bowl around your post. This is VERY COMMON in fences that use dirt for fill, or concrete that is not sloped up the post.
Replace with the same thing, but be sure to get the water away from the post. In my experience, the posts are fine above the ground and below the ground, but at ground level, they are rotten all the way through.
Eddie
beppington
Elite Member
Eddie: I'm about to put eight brand new 6"x6"x20' posts in the ground for a pole barn. I plan to concrete them for strength. The soil in the area can be anywhere from sand to clay (haven't auger-ed the holes yet), & is right on the edge of floodplain/ wetlands, although we're dry/ drought-ish now, there will be times when the soil is wetter.
Do you have a recommendation on how to concrete, fill or gravel each post? Do I need any gravel? Just fill the entire hole with concrete? Use concrete but also some of the dirt that came out of the hole? Thank you for whatever you can offer.
Do you have a recommendation on how to concrete, fill or gravel each post? Do I need any gravel? Just fill the entire hole with concrete? Use concrete but also some of the dirt that came out of the hole? Thank you for whatever you can offer.
EddieWalker
Epic Contributor
Pole barns are totally different then fences. The roof and walls protect them quite a bit, so your main concern is the part of the post that is on the exterior wall. Make sure you have good drainage and there isn't any standing water!!!!
As for concrete, it's really one of those either or options. Pole barns are self standing, you are not rellying on the pole to hold the building up. The purlins, siding and roof all combine to hold it together. Just like table standing on it's own. The poles anchor it in place and add considerable strength, but if built properly, and the weather was always perfect, without any wind, then the building would stand just fine without the poles in the ground.
The advantage to a pole barn is that those poles in the ground make it easier and faster to build because you don't have to deal with a foundation, or anchoring the building to that foundation.
The friction from compacting the post with dirt is plenty for any pole barn. Concete on a pole barn post to me is over kill and not needed in most cases. Since you are in FL, hurricanes are going to dictate what you need and how deep you need to go. But I bet you will lose a roof long before your poles come out of the ground no matter how you anchor them.
Everything I've read suggests that you want to keep the ends of your poles off of the soil. Loose gravel at the bottom of the hole or a concrete cookie is supposed to accmoplish this. I have my doubts becasue to me, that creates a place for water to go and remain. Water is the enemy. The dryer the better.
I've pulled and replaced quite a few wood posts and I have never seen one rotten fron the end. I think that the theory is fine, but in the real world, it's just an extra expense that doesn't accomplish anything. Stick the treated post in the ground, pack it with clay and keep it dry. You will be long dead before that post ever needs to be replaced!!!!
Eddie
As for concrete, it's really one of those either or options. Pole barns are self standing, you are not rellying on the pole to hold the building up. The purlins, siding and roof all combine to hold it together. Just like table standing on it's own. The poles anchor it in place and add considerable strength, but if built properly, and the weather was always perfect, without any wind, then the building would stand just fine without the poles in the ground.
The advantage to a pole barn is that those poles in the ground make it easier and faster to build because you don't have to deal with a foundation, or anchoring the building to that foundation.
The friction from compacting the post with dirt is plenty for any pole barn. Concete on a pole barn post to me is over kill and not needed in most cases. Since you are in FL, hurricanes are going to dictate what you need and how deep you need to go. But I bet you will lose a roof long before your poles come out of the ground no matter how you anchor them.
Everything I've read suggests that you want to keep the ends of your poles off of the soil. Loose gravel at the bottom of the hole or a concrete cookie is supposed to accmoplish this. I have my doubts becasue to me, that creates a place for water to go and remain. Water is the enemy. The dryer the better.
I've pulled and replaced quite a few wood posts and I have never seen one rotten fron the end. I think that the theory is fine, but in the real world, it's just an extra expense that doesn't accomplish anything. Stick the treated post in the ground, pack it with clay and keep it dry. You will be long dead before that post ever needs to be replaced!!!!
Eddie
Useful, now I know what to look for. Tnx
beppington
Elite Member
OK, thank you Eddie :thumbsup:
sandman2234
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Motorseven posted the same thing I was thinking. My Dad's farm had a "cedar break" across it, and he cut cedar and split them for posts. The yellow part of the cedar doesn't last long, but if you get enough of the red heart, it will last for years and years and well, we are still waiting on the results from that fencing...
David from jax
Short Game
Veteran Member
My only experience is with western red cedar. I have worked in a shingle mill, sold shake boards to shake mills, and have made my own fence posts. For good posts from our cedar here, you don't want the center part of the heart with large growth rings. You don't want the sapwood. You want the thin grained wood between the two from big old growth trees. Wood from OG trees that have lain on top of the ground for years seems pretty good. My neighbor dug one out of wet mud and made posts that didn't last at all. I have been told that it is good to char the part that goes into the ground. I have read that it is better to put them in the ground upside down from the way they grew.
F250DSLPWR
Silver Member
On our ranch there are some cedar (Ashe Juniper) fence posts that are still standing strong for over 60yrs and the ones I have pulled up (not easy I might add) have had very little rot on the bottom of them. I read somewhere that the male trees make the best posts and don't rot. I am not sure about that but, it is true that you also want posts with the most heart wood. Also, if using cedar, remove the bark so the post can dry out. For pressure treated posts put an inch or so of gravel in the bottom of the hole for the post to sit on. This lets any moisture drain away from the bottom end of the post. Also pack the surface dirt around the post so that water will drain away from the post. TSC makes some black post paint that you may want to dip and paint the bottom part of the posts.
mx842
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Most post will rot right at, or just below the ground line. Once it starts it wont take long before the whole post that is below ground will rot away. I wont say that water is not the problem but it is more a problem of the post being wet one day and dry the next. This constant change is what will cause the post to over time go away.
You can put a piece of wood, treated or not in water and as long as it stays under the water it will stay that way for years. Take that same piece of wood out of the water and let it dry out and it won't take long for it to soften and then the bugs will do the rest. I know of pilings that have been in the water for at least 80 years and they are as solid as the day they pumped them into the sand.
It is impossible to keep a post dry in the ground unless you are in a desert. The water table rises and lowers each year around here. Right now surface water is really close to the top of the ground. I dug 6 post holes last week and before I finished digging they were all full to the top with water. The pole barn guys told me to throw a solid block in the bottom of the hole then put the post in and true it up and pour the concrete right into the water and there would never be a problem. I on the other hand just couldn't bring myself to do that so I mixed up my concrete and then dipped the water out and cleaned out the bottom then put in the concrete in and brought it up to within a foot from the ground level. After it set up I drilled holes in the concrete and attached my post to the fixtures I made in my shop. When I pour my floor I will fill in around the post and not worry about it any more.
You can put a piece of wood, treated or not in water and as long as it stays under the water it will stay that way for years. Take that same piece of wood out of the water and let it dry out and it won't take long for it to soften and then the bugs will do the rest. I know of pilings that have been in the water for at least 80 years and they are as solid as the day they pumped them into the sand.
It is impossible to keep a post dry in the ground unless you are in a desert. The water table rises and lowers each year around here. Right now surface water is really close to the top of the ground. I dug 6 post holes last week and before I finished digging they were all full to the top with water. The pole barn guys told me to throw a solid block in the bottom of the hole then put the post in and true it up and pour the concrete right into the water and there would never be a problem. I on the other hand just couldn't bring myself to do that so I mixed up my concrete and then dipped the water out and cleaned out the bottom then put in the concrete in and brought it up to within a foot from the ground level. After it set up I drilled holes in the concrete and attached my post to the fixtures I made in my shop. When I pour my floor I will fill in around the post and not worry about it any more.
Short Game
Veteran Member
The combination of water and air seems to be the killer. Pilings rot at the water line or between the tide lines. Fence posts rot at the surface of the ground. Logs last almost forever under cold water where air is kept away.
EddieWalker
Epic Contributor
Just to add to the gravel at the bottom of a post theory. From what I understand, the gravel is to act as a storage area for water that gets down there, and then drains into the ground while allowing the end grain of the post to remain dry, or dry out faster then if the gravel wasn't there.
My thoughts are that the gravel will quickly silt up and actually become a place that holds water. From what I've seen removing fence posts, I don't know if it matters either way.
I have never found the end of a post to be rotten. In fact, they are always in perfect condition, or very close to it. I've removed posts from farms that where built in the 40's or a bit earlier and found this to be true.
I read an article about a study done at a landfill in Southern California by one of the Universities there. What they found is that once burried to a certain depth, nothing happens to what is burried. They found newspapers from the 70's that you could still read the print on them when they dug into the ground.
If I understand rot, it takes more then just water to happen. It has to have the right temps and exposure to happen. Like already mentioned, a pine log in the water for a hundred years is in near perfect condition, but leave it laying on the ground for a year and it's rotted through and worthless.
Keep the water away for the base of the post, and it will last. Let water sit there and it will rot on you. It doesn't matter what you use, if it's wood, it will rot.
Eddie
My thoughts are that the gravel will quickly silt up and actually become a place that holds water. From what I've seen removing fence posts, I don't know if it matters either way.
I have never found the end of a post to be rotten. In fact, they are always in perfect condition, or very close to it. I've removed posts from farms that where built in the 40's or a bit earlier and found this to be true.
I read an article about a study done at a landfill in Southern California by one of the Universities there. What they found is that once burried to a certain depth, nothing happens to what is burried. They found newspapers from the 70's that you could still read the print on them when they dug into the ground.
If I understand rot, it takes more then just water to happen. It has to have the right temps and exposure to happen. Like already mentioned, a pine log in the water for a hundred years is in near perfect condition, but leave it laying on the ground for a year and it's rotted through and worthless.
Keep the water away for the base of the post, and it will last. Let water sit there and it will rot on you. It doesn't matter what you use, if it's wood, it will rot.
Eddie
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The region of the post at ground level has the combination of oxygen and moisture that fungi love (fungi are the cause of rot).
Conditions necessary for decay of wood
Conditions necessary for decay of wood
Short Game
Veteran Member
In a few minutes, I'm going outside to inject logs with plugs of sawdust filled with the fungus: Lentinula edodes (Shiitake mushroom). When I've done that, I will lay them on the ground to keep them wet. I love that kind of rot.
