Sooty Massey

   #1  

prairiegirl

New member
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Messages
16
Tractor
John Deere 2950, 7200, Kubota, MF
Hi, our Massey 4609 loses about a litre of oil while running the hammer mill. We would not know where it goes, but when we work it a bit harder it blows it all out of the smokestack - soot all over!
Checked the turbo -leaky seal could cause this- seems to work fine.
Dealer thinks a leaky valve perhaps - would get expensive.
We installed a PCR valve already. EDIT: PCV
Any other ideas out there?
 
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   #2  

Roadworthy

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2019
Messages
2,355
Location
Southeast Washington
Tractor
Kubota L2501 HST,
Check your engine oil level. If hydraulic fluid is leaking into the oil it will overfill the oil pan and blow it out.
 
  
  • Thread Starter
#3  
OP
prairiegirl

prairiegirl

New member
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Messages
16
Tractor
John Deere 2950, 7200, Kubota, MF
It seems all new tractors blow black smoke. Much better than the old ones, eh.
 
   #5  

rScotty

Elite Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2001
Messages
4,972
Location
Rural mountains - Colorado
Tractor
Kubota M59, JD530, JD310SG. Restoring Yanmar YM165D
Hi, our Massey 4609 loses about a litre of oil while running the hammer mill. We would not know where it goes, but when we work it a bit harder it blows it all out of the smokestack - soot all over!
Checked the turbo -leaky seal could cause this- seems to work fine.
Dealer thinks a leaky valve perhaps - would get expensive.
We installed a PCR valve already.
Any other ideas out there?

Do you mean an EGR valve? Or a PCV valve?
Not familiar with the PCR valve.

I believe your engine has an EGR emissions reduction system. EGR is Exhaust Gas Recirculation.
Some pre-2015 engines had the EGR type of emissions control - which basically is a system for reburning a portion of the exhaust to reduce NO2 emissions. My M59 tractor has it too.

The way EGR works so that when the engine is hot and the turbo is spinning, a portion of the exhaust gases are diverted first into a cooler and then back into the incoming air to be reburned with the next charge. NO2 is reduced, but at the expense of more soot formation.

The EGR emission system was specifically put on some engines as a way to reduce NO2 emissions because that is where the emission regulatory line was drawn at the time. And EGR was a known and inexpensive technology to reduce NO2.
But EGR emissions systems are touchy and if they are just a little out of whack then they make lots of soot.
That was no problem for the regulators, they had already written the later (Tier IV final) regulations that were phased in after 2015 and addressed soot as well as NO2 ....but in doing so we ended up paying for the complex emissions systems we have today.

It sounds to me like your EGR cooler is loading up with oil. I'm not sure why. But I'd look to the EGR system.
It's not expensive.
The EGR can be disassembled and cleaned pretty easily. Good ones sometimes chatter. That's OK.
Also, there is a therostatically controlled valve that controls flow into the EGR and thence to the EGR cooler. That valve looksat the water temperature and opens up the exhaust port to the EGR when the temperature is high.
Those are first places I'd look.
rScotty

BTW, if the turbo seal was bad I'm not sure you would notice it very easily becuse the oil would be gettig blown into the EGR cooler. Take another look at that seal - or run for a while without the turbo if you can.
 
  
  • Thread Starter
#6  
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prairiegirl

prairiegirl

New member
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Messages
16
Tractor
John Deere 2950, 7200, Kubota, MF
Do you mean an EGR valve? Or a PCV valve?
Not familiar with the PCR valve.

I believe your engine has an EGR emissions reduction system. EGR is Exhaust Gas Recirculation.
Some pre-2015 engines had the EGR type of emissions control - which basically is a system for reburning a portion of the exhaust to reduce NO2 emissions. My M59 tractor has it too.

The way EGR works so that when the engine is hot and the turbo is spinning, a portion of the exhaust gases are diverted first into a cooler and then back into the incoming air to be reburned with the next charge. NO2 is reduced, but at the expense of more soot formation.

The EGR emission system was specifically put on some engines as a way to reduce NO2 emissions because that is where the emission regulatory line was drawn at the time. And EGR was a known and inexpensive technology to reduce NO2.
But EGR emissions systems are touchy and if they are just a little out of whack then they make lots of soot.
That was no problem for the regulators, they had already written the later (Tier IV final) regulations that were phased in after 2015 and addressed soot as well as NO2 ....but in doing so we ended up paying for the complex emissions systems we have today.

It sounds to me like your EGR cooler is loading up with oil. I'm not sure why. But I'd look to the EGR system.
It's not expensive.
The EGR can be disassembled and cleaned pretty easily. Good ones sometimes chatter. That's OK.
Also, there is a therostatically controlled valve that controls flow into the EGR and thence to the EGR cooler. That valve looksat the water temperature and opens up the exhaust port to the EGR when the temperature is high.
Those are first places I'd look.
rScotty

BTW, if the turbo seal was bad I'm not sure you would notice it very easily becuse the oil would be gettig blown into the EGR cooler. Take another look at that seal - or run for a while without the turbo if you can.
Thanks, will have a look. For now, hubs redirected the stack so it blows soot on his foot instead of his face :)
 
   #7  

rScotty

Elite Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2001
Messages
4,972
Location
Rural mountains - Colorado
Tractor
Kubota M59, JD530, JD310SG. Restoring Yanmar YM165D
Yep. Good for hubs. There's little worse than having a diesel blowing "diesel slobber" up in the air and then having it rain down on you.

But I was thinking some more about that turbo seal you mentioned in your first post. It would sure fit the symptoms.....and especially so if a leaky turbo is combined with the unique exhaust after-cooler that is part of all EGR systems. it sure sounds like oil is pooling in the after-cooler. Just a matter of finding out why.....

Whoever gave you that advice to look at the turbo seal sounds to me like he has a pretty good understanding of the peculiarities of the EGR system - a system which was a stop-gap and getting pretty rare these days. I'd be wanting some more good advice from that person.
Maybe ask him how he would diagnose it. Diagnosing a turbo seal where the turbo is necessary to feed the EGR is a bit tricky...not sure how I would do it.....although I think it would turn out to be more of "knowing the trick" rather than an expensive test.
 
  
  • Thread Starter
#8  
OP
prairiegirl

prairiegirl

New member
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Messages
16
Tractor
John Deere 2950, 7200, Kubota, MF
Do you mean an EGR valve? Or a PCV valve?
Not familiar with the PCR valve.

I believe your engine has an EGR emissions reduction system. EGR is Exhaust Gas Recirculation.
Some pre-2015 engines had the EGR type of emissions control - which basically is a system for reburning a portion of the exhaust to reduce NO2 emissions. My M59 tractor has it too.

The way EGR works so that when the engine is hot and the turbo is spinning, a portion of the exhaust gases are diverted first into a cooler and then back into the incoming air to be reburned with the next charge. NO2 is reduced, but at the expense of more soot formation.

The EGR emission system was specifically put on some engines as a way to reduce NO2 emissions because that is where the emission regulatory line was drawn at the time. And EGR was a known and inexpensive technology to reduce NO2.
But EGR emissions systems are touchy and if they are just a little out of whack then they make lots of soot.
That was no problem for the regulators, they had already written the later (Tier IV final) regulations that were phased in after 2015 and addressed soot as well as NO2 ....but in doing so we ended up paying for the complex emissions systems we have today.

It sounds to me like your EGR cooler is loading up with oil. I'm not sure why. But I'd look to the EGR system.
It's not expensive.
The EGR can be disassembled and cleaned pretty easily. Good ones sometimes chatter. That's OK.
Also, there is a therostatically controlled valve that controls flow into the EGR and thence to the EGR cooler. That valve looksat the water temperature and opens up the exhaust port to the EGR when the temperature is high.
Those are first places I'd look.
rScotty

BTW, if the turbo seal was bad I'm not sure you would notice it very easily becuse the oil would be gettig blown into the EGR cooler. Take another look at that seal - or run for a while without the turbo if you can.

That explains it, thank you. These new diesels are certainly not built for fuel-efficiency. Should have bought an old tractor, I guess.
it will not run without the turbo -took hose off- , no power at all.
 
 
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