Splitter question

[handirifle]

The suction and return is low pressure. Just plain pipe fittings will work. A bell reducer where you need to step down. There is still benefit to running larger line.

Yea I figured a reducer at the tank was easy. I was trying to figure how to come from the tank with a 1 1/4 line and reduce it AT the PUMP. Step down hose fittings are not a common thing.

 

[handirifle]

Yea I get that mentality completely. Have the stuff I own is built on that premise. I have a Craftsman mower that the blade bearing and other deck components wore out on. I removed the deck and use it as a small tractor but I keep thinking I would have a better use for that motor.

Heck I even thought of using the hydrostatic rear axle as a hydraulic hoist, attaching a pulley on one axle and using a cable run out to a boom. Then I could more easily load some of the huge oak rounds I end up, with onto my trailer.

 

[Texasmark]

Yea I figured a reducer at the tank was easy. I was trying to figure how to come from the tank with a 1 1/4 line and reduce it AT the PUMP. Step down hose fittings are not a common thing.

You can see by my picture, I couldn't find a suitable inexpensive inlet hose above 1" and had adapter problems at the pump inlet, ¾ as I recall, so I downsized from the NT outlet 1 ½ or 1 ¼ down to 1" went with the 1" hose and adapted to ¾ at the pump. I'm using clear PVC hose I bought at Lowes about 3 years ago and it's holding up fine. Not showing any signs of degradation.

All those fittings are water type plumbing fittings. Having no problems. Use a pipe dope paste suitable for lubricants amont other things. I have some of them in the outlet too that are working ok but when I find the high pressure ones to suit me I may change over. I have been running water fittings on my implement hydraulics for 35 years and only lost one and that was due to mechanical damage, not pressure related.

 

[handirifle]

Well I got all my parts today. For the life of me I cannot figure out how to run a larger hose from tank to pump. Part of the problem is that the pump has a 5/8" (I thought it was 3/4) hose barb inlet. This is not a fitting threaded into the pump, it's part of the pump. That is a real dilemma to me. If I (or someone) can figure a way around it, let me know. For now, it's 5/8 all the way. It has worked that way so far, but probably would work better as you guys have suggested.

Maybe someday an upgraded pump someday? For now it's not possible. My tank inlet is 1 1/2" so if I ever do go larger or newer on the pump, I can surely get a larger feed line.

Anyway, I got my filter also. Question. All the splitters I saw today had the filter in the return line to the tank, is that correct? Odd thing was one of them, a 34 ton unit at a Kubota dealer, had the flow arrow on the pump housing, pointing TOWARDS the valve. That seems backwards to me.

The BAD part was those fittings are ridiculously priced, WOW! A 3/4" MPT to 5/8" hose barb was $6.99 at the cheapest, and $10 at the highest. They were brass, but I couldn't find that fitting in any other material.

 

[LD1]

Any pictures?

Are you sure it is 5/8? Thats pretty uncommon in hose sizes and as such some of the common barbed fittings for 5/8" are more expensive than for 3/4 or even 1"

There isnt gonna be a cheap solution to your problem. Two fittings needed at the pump. Say a 5/8" barb with 3/4" female pipe threads and a 1" barb with 3/4" male threads. Thread them together and basically make a reducing barbed coupler. Short piece of 5/8" hose then the rest with 1". A 1" barb with 1-1/4" threads at the tank.

They make reducing barbed couplers, but I didnt see any that reduce more than one step.

Arrow pointing toward the valve is definitely wrong on a return filter. It will still filter, for awhile anyway. But the built in check valve bypass wont operate. so could blow a filter if it becomes clogged

 

[handirifle]

Yea I should have at least done a before/after. It was raining pretty hard (finally) when I got home yesterday, so I just left my parts in the truck. I will assemble them today, with pictures. I will take shots of the old "tank" I took off and threw away too. I'm a little embarrassed at the number of reducers I needed to use, but I guess it is what it is.

When you live rural and the nearest shop that carries hydraulic fittings, or in my case the filter, is 35 miles away, it's hard to round up parts. Most of the time I will order online, but in this case I wanted to get it done, and I needed to see and test fit parts myself.

Not only are 5/8 parts expensive, no one carries them.

I have determined my next upgrade to this will be a pump with a larger output (maybe 13-16 GPM)and suction. I see quite a few in that range at $150-200, and specs list a 1" suction. That will be an easy swap, when the time comes. I don't want to go too big gpm wise, due to the 5hp engine. That said, I see box store splitters rated 27-30 ton, with a 6.5hp engine.

Maybe a better route would be to use the 15hp Briggs I have (old riding mower) and build a beast of a splitter and sell this one to help fund it. Heck that would be a fancy one with electric start even. Someday! I would need a bigger welder first. No way would the little 110v mig do 1/2" or heavier, steel.

 

[handirifle]

Yea I should have at least done a before/after. It was raining pretty hard (finally) when I got home yesterday, so I just left my parts in the truck. I will assemble them today, with pictures. I will take shots of the old "tank" I took off and threw away too. I'm a little embarrassed at the number of reducers I needed to use, but I guess it is what it is.

When you live rural and the nearest shop that carries hydraulic fittings, or in my case the filter, is 35 miles away, it's hard to round up parts. Most of the time I will order online, but in this case I wanted to get it done, and I needed to see and test fit parts myself.

Not only are 5/8 parts expensive, no one carries them.

I have determined my next upgrade to this will be a pump with a larger output (maybe 13-16 GPM)and suction. I see quite a few in that range at $150-200, and specs list a 1" suction. That will be an easy swap, when the time comes. I don't want to go too big gpm wise, due to the 5hp engine. That said, I see box store splitters rated 27-30 ton, with a 6.5hp engine.

Maybe a better route would be to use the 15hp Briggs I have (old riding mower) and build a beast of a splitter and sell this one to help fund it. Heck that would be a fancy one with electric start even. Someday! I would need a bigger welder first. No way would the little 110v mig do 1/2" or heavier, steel.

 

[handirifle]

OK got it together. Haven't put fluid in yet, but will explain.
First off, the suction line IS 3/4, duh! Soooo, I used the old hose that was on it (heater hose I think). So that will have to be redone, soon. I THINK I can pinch it off enough to not lose my fluid when I do. At least I can catch it in a bucket if need be.

I decided to post some picks as promised so here goes.

This first pic is with the new tank in it's place and the old one on top of it, just to compare them. All the oil on the old one is only a small portion that had been leaking from the crappy old tank.

This is a shot of the tank (mounted) with the suction line connected. The suction line looks huge in this pic because the previous owner torched a hole in the platform and brought the suction line up through it, and wrapped the suction hose with another old hose to protect it. I re-installed both hoses, for now. I don't have a suitable piece of new 3/4 hose.

This shows the tank side of the whole splitter. The right "leg" of the splitter is white from the degreaser I sprayed on it to clean the years of leaking fluid. Note my filter sits a little cockeyed underneath. When I tack welded the bracket I made for the filter, it "looked" level to me, until I hade the filter mounted. I am going to fix that right after this post. I am sure it will work as it, but it bugs me to look at it.

This is the valve side and you can see where i mounted the filter. I wanted it out of the way and protected, so there it is. All line to and from filter are 5/8".

This is the return side. You can see it come up out of the filter housing and into the street el to the tank. It's all tucked in there nicely. When I ordered the tank I wasn't sure if it would fit up there.

The "legs" on this were added by the PO. The splitter came from the factory sitting just below knee height, and he didn't like it that low so he raised it. Those are big H beams he used for legs. The 1/2" square tube rods are braces to keep the legs from flexing. I am going to remove those and brace them another way. Not sure yet.

Any way it's not the best looking one out there but it will do the job and hopefully the pump will last longer than the previous one, now that I have a filter in the line. Someday I will paint it all orange, just to make it match, maybe .

 

[handirifle]

Oh yea forgot to mention, the orange cross brace between the legs, I added. The legs were cockeyed before. After this I am starting to think I COULD build my own, larger one. IF I had a better (bigger) welder.

Might have to save for a DC tombstone.

 

[LD1]

I don't want to go too big gpm wise, due to the 5hp engine. That said, I see box store splitters rated 27-30 ton, with a 6.5hp engine.

HP and tonnage are not related in the case of splitters. I could make a 100 ton splitter with a 3HP motor if I wanted.

Very simply in the world of splitters, they all run nearly the same PSI, so "tonnage" is about cylinder diameter only. roughly 4" = 18-22T rated, 4.5" = 25-28T rated and 5" cylinder = 34-37T rated.

HP allows you to run a higher flow rate pump, so it will cycle quicker, but dont change the tonnage unless pressure or cylinder diameter change.

You typically see more HP on higher tonnage machines because they have larger cylinders, and need more FLOW to have a decent cycle speed.

Looking good on the build. 3/4" is fine for suction. Afterthought, but I have a valve on mine incase I need to pull a pump.

 

[handirifle]

OK got it, thanks. Ha! On the valve. I just filled it. Lesson 1, do NOT clean it before filling it......grrrrr A 5 gal tub of fluid. a funnel. and open and pour, right? Nope, gurgle gurgle gurgle, gurgle knocks funnel out of fill tube, fluid goes ALL OVER splitter.

Finally get mess cleaned up, start and test. One fitting on the inlet of filter leaks. loose as a goose, duh. Of course fluid now spills again, when I take things apart to tighten the street el like I was supposed to do the first time.

Clean it AGAIN. Then test. All is well, finally. Yes a valve, or two would have been a good idea.

Maybe when I build my 15hp one?

 

[Texasmark]

HP and tonnage are not related in the case of splitters. I could make a 100 ton splitter with a 3HP motor if I wanted.

Very simply in the world of splitters, they all run nearly the same PSI, so "tonnage" is about cylinder diameter only. roughly 4" = 18-22T rated, 4.5" = 25-28T rated and 5" cylinder = 34-37T rated.

HP allows you to run a higher flow rate pump, so it will cycle quicker, but dont change the tonnage unless pressure or cylinder diameter change.

You typically see more HP on higher tonnage machines because they have larger cylinders, and need more FLOW to have a decent cycle speed.

Looking good on the build. 3/4" is fine for suction. Afterthought, but I have a valve on mine incase I need to pull a pump.

My way of thinking says that the area of the cylinder x the hydraulic pressure = # force applied to the ram. Then the # force is applied to the log which strikes the ram and the splitting pressure is in psi. So the blade needs to be sharp on the end to minimize the square inches of contact and maximize what # force you have. But I believe in popping the log open so that means getting a little steel in the wood and then with a wedge which starts about an inch back from the tip force the log apart.

Area is radius squared x ratio of diameter to circumference....pi....22/7.

So (4"/2) exp 2 x 22/7 = 12.57 sq in (area of the piston) x 2k (hyd pres) = 25,000 # force. Dividing by 2000 to get tons = 12.5 tons force.

That was my dilema. I was looking for about 25 T when I started my project and when I settled on a 4" max x 24 cylinder, I was locked into 12.5.

So I did the next best thing. It took 3 iterations to do my wedge, but it is a wedge with a knife point followed 1" down the blade with a 30 degree expansion (wedge) and haven't seen anything I can't bust with it....with a little grunting.

So I don't know where the 18-22T rating you mentioned comes from with a 4" cylinder. If I missed something and in fact have a 25 ton then whoopee.

 

[LD1]

I said rating. As in comparison to box store models that hype the numbers.

And 2000psi is LOW for hydraulics. Most run 3k give or take

 

[LD1]

I said rating. As in comparison to box store models that hype the numbers.

And 2000psi is LOW for hydraulics. Most run 3k give or take

 

[Texasmark]

I looked up my pump specs and at 3600 it's rated at 2500 nominal 3.5 gpm in the high pressure mode......."locked rotor" rating is 3000. So my 12.5 ton guesstimate increased by 25% all the way up to 15.7 ton but seldom do 3600 rpm rated air cooled engines run 3600...now that we have tachs to monitor such. So dropping the rpms back to the 32-3300 rpm where mine normally run gets me back to 90% of that 15.7 or 14 ton. Just running numbers, assuming the flow is restricted for some reason (hose/fitting losses) then flow drops and pressure increases. Taking the max pressure I'm at 18.7 which reaches the range if my engine is running 3600. But that's close enough. Course with 8 hp required to make the pump perform as spec'd and having twice the hp available, it ought to do 3600....no tach on this engine. That and my wedge get-r-done so I'm ok.

 

[LD1]

It's don't matter what the pump is rated at. Pumps don't make pressure they make flow. Restriction makes pressure. Infinite pressure will build until restriction is removed. To keep things in check, that's why we have prv's. So whatever yours is set to crack open at is what pressure you will have provided you have the HP to build that. Never heard of a "locked rotor" pressure for a pump??

And not running full rpm has no bearing on tonnage. Tonnage is pressure and cylinder bore. Pumps don't make pressure. Has no effect. 3200 will make the same pressure, just flow a lower gpm. (Make it extend and retract slower).

But all that aside, I will say it again. I did not mean to imply that a 4" bore splitter will actually make 18-22t. The numbers I listed are just what mfgs commonly "rate" them at. I mentioned that for comparison purposes only.

 

[handirifle]

LD1
Following this little back-n-forth here, could the locked rotor pressure he mentioned be if say the piston meets an unmovable force, and at 3000 oil starts to leak by the pump gears internally? I am only guessing here because I really do not know. Just a thought.

While we're on the subject, what combination would one suggest if later on I want to build a bigger one, using my 15hp Briggs engine? Would like tonnage as high as possible, BUT a fairly fast cycle time (unloaded of course) would be desirable as well, say less than 10 sec out and back.

 

[LD1]

Never heard the term locked rotor with a hydraulic pump, so I'm not gonna speculate on that.

For your splitter, tonnage is limited by only cylinder diameter and pressure. Increase either and tonnage goes up. You have to consider the safe working limits (psi rating) of everything else. Cylinder, valve, hoses, etc.

HP requirements are (gpm x psi)/(1714 x efficiency)

Efficiency is usually 0.85

So looking at the formula, more power can allow you to go with more pressure or more flow(speed) or a combination of both staying within the HP requirements.

Since most splitter components and 2-stage pumps are in the 3000psi range, getting more tonnage isn't likely with current cylinder. So use that HP to gain speed.

22gpm 2-stage is a good combo. Jumping to a 28gpm adds a alot of cost, is borderline with 15hp, and little to no gain over a 22. Cause a 22gpm is already taxing the limits of port sizes on a 4" cylinder and standard 25gpm valve and associated fittings.

Only way a 28 would benefit is custom cylinder with large ports, and a 50gpm valve. Again....costly for the little gain.

My 22gpm 4" cylinder w/2" rod and 24" stroke runs 7.9-8.0 seconds out and back. At 3600rpm it calculates that it should be about 6.3 seconds. I don't think my motor is running quite 3600, and again, taxing the limits of the -08 orb ports in the cylinder.

 

[handirifle]

Thanks. I figured I would step up to a 5" cylinder, if I built new and had a 22gpm pump in mind. I figure a 24" stroke is more than enough. I would not use the 15hp on this unit, since the little Honda does fine. Not the strongest unit going but it works. Was just thinking ahead.

 

[Texasmark]

I used the locked rotor term which is an electrical term for motors when the current is max just the instant before the voltage starts to fall off caused by a load so large that the motor's rotor (armature) can no longer rotate aka locked. That's the way they rate motors nowadays so you think you are getting more than you are really getting when you consider Volts x amps x power factor, x efficiency of the motor and 741 watts per hp. So I just used that terminology not being a pump guy.

Not familiar with the name for a gear pump when the output is blocked and it's locked to a driving motor with adequate hp. Assuming the flow is stopped, the motor is still turning/attempting to turn the shaft of the pump, the fluid is being compressed but not moving, or moving at a lower rate than the pump's rating. This puts pressure on the pump (head pressure) requiring more hp from the drive source, pressure goes asymptotic if blocked completely and something would blow up if it weren't for the PRV built into the pump. Yes I think mine is 3k psig but that is not the working pressure of 2500 under normal loads.

From your post LD, "My 22gpm 4" cylinder w/2" rod and 24" stroke runs 7.9-8.0 seconds out and back. At 3600rpm it calculates that it should be about 6.3 seconds. I don't think my motor is running quite 3600, and again, taxing the limits of the -08 orb ports in the cylinder."

That's exactly where I am with my rig (8-7 seconds out-back) as I stated earlier in this posting but with my "posted" 16 gpm pump on what seems to be the same sized cylinder.

So I guess I'm getting what I should out of my junkyard kludge.

Thanks for the chit chat.

Handi: On 24 in, I used that because my logs have to be no more than 22 to fit my stove and on going to 5" weight and cost were prohibitive to me besides requiring a larger gpm pump to get the cycle time down. Again, I started this kludge of mine because my Ford tractor was only running about 7 gpm at WOT....30 hp tractor doing a 8 hp job; not very efficient in fuel and wasted time.