Spray-on expanding foam wall insulation....

SPIKER · Jan 26, 2006

rswayne:

hey that does not sound too bad. who was the quote from? I'm more vcenteral ohio but heyworth the call . does it require stud walls to be already sheet rocked? is this stuff like blown in culotose (attic stuff) or is it more of a foam in place and then drywall over top?

thanks for info.
mark

rswyan · Jan 27, 2006

Mark,

( hey that does not sound too bad )
Yeah .... that's what I thought ...... just keep in mind that they guy hasn't actually been here yet to look at things and it's not a firm quote (at least I don't consider that it is) He's going to try and stop down sometime this next week. He's about an hour north of me.

( who was the quote from? )
I PM'ed you his contact info.

( does it require stud walls to be already sheet rocked? )
No - in fact they can't be. The wall has to be open so that they can spray the insulation in and then use this:

Krendl Wall Scrubber

to clean off the overspray from the stud edges so that the insulation is flush. Since his wall scrubber is only 27" wide I will have to stud in my walls on 2' centers so he can cut the insulation flush with the studs, .

( is this stuff like blown in culotose (attic stuff) or is it more of a foam in place and then drywall over top? )
More like the latter, in that it's sprayed into the cavity. What it actually is, is cellulose (like the stuff they use in attics) that is mixed with a water-mist/glue solution right at the tip of the nozzle:

Krendl Wall Cavity System

He also told me that in non-freezing conditions the product is dry within a day or two and the wall covering (OSB, drywall, etc.) can be applied at that point.

bebster · Jan 27, 2006

The difference between Iceynene and Tiger Foam is that the former is open-cell foam and the latter is closed-cell polyurethane. Iceynene has an R of about 5 per inch (similar to pink foam board which is extruded polystyrene) and does supposedly let vapor pass through. Polyurethane is closed cell and doesn't let vapor pass through, but is R=7 per inch. The cost per R value goes up with fiberglass being the cheapest and Polyurethane foam the most expensive. If you have the depth in the cavity to fill it with fiberglass and that gives you enough R value then that's the cheapest.

bebster · Jan 28, 2006

I did some research last month on various insulation methods, and tried to figure out how much it costs per square foot to get an R value of 10. The numbers I came up with are:

NON-VAPOR BARRIERS:
$0.24 Fiberglass
$0.58 High-density Fiberglass (15% more R than regular)
$1.05 XPS (extruded polystyrene, eg "Foamular" pink)
$1.52 Icynene foam
VAPOR BARRIERS:
$0.77 Polyisocyanurate (foil-skin sheets)
$1.81 TigerFoam (polyurethane spary foam)

That's why it's so common to find fiberglass with kraft paper or sheet plastic for a vapor barrier.

But air infiltration is the real culprit for BTU loss in heating, which fiberglass is not good at. I'm considering using a couple of inches of icynene to stop the air, and then fill up the rest of the cavity with fiberglass. For a vapor barrier (on the warm side in my climate), on walls I'll use sheet plastic, but on the ceiling maybe a 1" thick polyisocyanurate board (4x8 sheets screwed to rafters and seams taped). That board will give ma an extra R=7 on top of what I can get between the rafters.

LBrown59 · Jan 28, 2006

( Check out a product called ICYNENE. (They have a web site) It's an enviromentally friendly spray insulation that does not use all the hcfc, hfc. It is water based to spray. You will have to find a insulation contractor that uses it. Check the "green" builders and I'm sure they can point you in the direction of one. It should only cost about 25 percent more than traditional. )

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I done the numbers sometime back & if I remember right
ICYNENE does cost more per sq. foot than fiber glass.
But you get a much higher R value with it than the fiberglass.
By the time you add an air infiltration blocker such as house wrap or celotex the cost of Fiber Glass can exceed that of ICYNENE.

Installing fiberglass and an air infiltration barrier is much more labor intensive than it is for ICYNENE so if you're hiring the insulation job done it could cost more than the ICYNENE while offering lower r values and higher air infiltration than ICYNENE

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The big persuader for me is ICYNENE doesn't require the bigger higher priced more fuel thirsty heating and cooling units.

The savings on the lower cost heating and cooling units could offset any difference in the cost difference between Fiberglass & ICYNENE

.

LBrown59 · Jan 28, 2006

came up with something like 40K to do just 2 walls of the pole barn out even with the posts considering that there is a 6' plus a 1/5" which comes out to a fill depth of 7" 
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40K is way off compared to a quote Icynene gave me for my 30 x 52 and 22 x 76 buildings.Total for both buildings was way less than $2000.oo
 You only need 3.5 inches no wonder you came out with such a high figure you priced 4 walls instead of 2 .
Just because you have 7 inches of space don't mean that you have to fill it up.

My pole barn has 4x 6 post which gives me a wall cavity depth of 5'' which is more than enough for the Icynene.
You must have your post turned the opposite direction than I have mine to get a 7 '' cavity.
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LBrown59 · Jan 28, 2006

( If you use this foam, be sure to put in some conduint where you think you may want electric, phone, cable, or anything in the wall BEFORE you apply it. It would be nearly impossible to install something, say an electrical outlet, in the wall after the fact. I would suggest at least one maybe 2 pipes in each wall cavity. 1" PVC is cheap for this. )
*******
Another advantage of Icynene is it leaves you a 1.5 '' air space for the wiring in a pole building so no conduit is needed
and there is no insulation to work around running the wires.

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MY FIRST CAR http://www.hubcapcafe.com/ocs/pages01/chev5003.htm
OUR FIRST CAR http://www.hubcapcafe.com/ocs/pages01/chev6003.htm
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LBrown59 · Jan 28, 2006

1* I have 7" of depth in the cavities from the inside edge of the poles to the sheet metal on the outside which should be plenty of space -
2* I could probably not even fill the cavities up all the way and I'd still be in good shape as far as insulation goes. .....

 1*How can you have a 7'' depth?
My 6 '' post give me a 5'' depth.
What size are your post??
2*You don't want to fill the 7 '' with foam.
Icynene automatically gives you an air space for wiring don't be so foolish as to fill it up with the foam.
3.5 inches is all you need to fill.
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MY FIRST CAR http://www.hub

LBrown59 · Jan 29, 2006

(

Consider furring strips placed 16" centers (real cheap) horizontally prior to screwing the OSB.
That way you can always fish any wires as you'd have that 3/4" space available.
Also the added 'dead air space' is actually another R2 maybe R3. )
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Icynene applied at the recommended thickness will automatically give him all the air space needed so the furring strips aren't necessary and the screwed on OSB eliminates fishing of wires.

He just needs to make sure he doesn't make the mistake of filling the air space with the foam.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MY FIRST CAR http://www.hubcapcafe.com/ocs/pages01/chev5003.htm
OUR FIRST CAR http://www.hubcapcafe.com/ocs/pages01/chev6003.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LBrown59 · Jan 29, 2006

I'm considering using a couple of inches of icynene to stop the air, and then fill up the rest of the cavity with fiberglass. For a vapor barrier (on the warm side in my climate), on walls I'll use sheet plastic, but on the ceiling maybe a 1" thick polyisocyanurate board (4x8 sheets screwed to rafters and seams taped)

******** ******* **********

I think what you would have after this is a combination of a botched up fiber glass system and a botched up foam job.
Going this way looks like it might Cost as much or more than going all foam and no doubt have a lower r value

Another problem I see is you would be filling the air space that's left with
icynene.
Space you need for wiring etc.

You don't fill the cavity with icynene just 3.5 inches of it.
At 2'' of foam you're already at 57% of a complete job. I'd just add the other 1.5 inch of icynene and be done with it.