Starter circuit problem

[Laneman950]

Engine clicks but won't turn over. Battery is reading 12.2 volts. I cleaned the cable ends neg & pos, checked the neutral switch. Here's the weird part. I have 12 volts at the starter terminal. When I turn the key to the on position it drops to 4 volts. The battery water level is good, purchased in Feb 07. Any ideas? Ignition switch?

 

[wushaw]

Your voltage drops to 8v when you turn the key on....bad battery.

Water level is one thing...electrolyte level is another, water level can be up but it is not a real good indicator of what the condition of the battery is.
Get a electrolyte level checker to see what state the battey is in.

Get a set of jumper cables and jump it off to see if it will start or put a battery charger that has a start feature and start the tractor then check what the alternator output is to verify the alternator is good/bad. 13.5 -14.4 is average for alternator output.

 

[bncsauve]

I agree, very likely bad battery, but, possibly shorted starter. If the wires get hot when you try to crank it, it could be the starter.

 

[RickB]

Do the voltage test DIRECTLY ON THE BATTERY POSTS while attempting to start. I believe you have a bad connection at one or more battery cable ends or perhaps a cable with internal corrosion. Find out where the voltage drops. Don't condemn either the battery or starter without using a battery of known quality or otherwise confirming starting voltage and amperage. Cable connections need to be clean & bright. The info you have provided so far can be caused by a bad starter, battery, cable or connection.

 

[Laneman950]

The voltage stays at 12.2 when tested at the battery posts and the key is turned on. When tested at the starter end of the positive cable and a good ground, it drops to 4v when I turn the key to the on position (not the start position)

 

[RickB]

That's a connection or cable problem, not a battery or starter problem.

 

[patrick_g]

Rick, You are the guy I want helping me when I run into a difficult electrical problem. You were definitely not like one of the blind men with the elephant!

Where were you when I needed you? I was driving the tractor out in a pasture and some folks walked up to talk to me so I turned it off and it refused to crank when I wanted to start it again. The idiot lights seemed normal but the starter didn't even twitch. All connections on the battery and starter were clean and tight.

A stick (piece of brush sticking up that escaped the full wrath of the brush hog) had "magically" found a way to stick up into the "works" and hit a starter solenoid terminal and cause an internal bare wire to shift position just enough to short to case. I didn't discover this until I removed the starter to replace it or have it rebuilt. Being curious I opened the starter to look inside. When I saw the wire I just chuckled and bent it away from the case, reinstalled it and tractored on.

Pat

 

[SPYDERLK]

That's a connection or cable problem, not a battery or starter problem.

What RickB said. You probably have a degraded cable to lug crimp junction. You can turn on lights and use a sensitive VM across each junction to find it. Readings across the good ones will be very near ZERO. With just lights as a load you may see a volt or so on the bad one.
larry

 

[patrick_g]

If you have a helper or a remote starter switch you can measure the voltage between the battery terminals and the attached cable clamps one at a time during brief cranking. The high current will cause there to be several volts lost at a bad connection. Do this with the battery ground connection to the chassis and at the starter terminals as well. If any of these connections are bad they will steal lots of cranking power. Turning on the lights will not help check the starter connections.

Pat

 

[SPYDERLK]

Quote patrick g: Turning on the lights will not help check the starter connections.

This will be true only if it is not a fault in the ground cable and power for the lights does not derive from the + cable at the starter solenoid. Many road vehicles have a separate smaller + lead originating at the batt that feeds all accessories. That arrangement would not load the + cable when the lights were on and you wouldnt be able find a bad joint in the + cable. All of my tractors conduct power to the system thru the + cable and the current servicing the lights passes thru all joints with inherent V drops at each. In such case, a sensitive V meter enables you to establish a figure of merit for each joint in comparison to one another. The 5 or so amps drawn by the lights is plenty to give an indication. Another way would be to draw current to the solenoid - that click you hear - for several seconds and then feel each joint for heat. A bad joint will warm - - or maybe get hot so touch carefully
larry

 

[patrick_g]

Larry, I'm not casting aspersions on your technical expertise. Maybe I was not too clear but the two main things I tried to communicate were engaging the starter to test the path to the starter is a sure thing and the lights aren't always plus the starter current will ensure an unambiguous voltage reading between the battery post and other places if there is a bad connection. If the connection is so so the lights might not make such an obvious indication.

All the advice you gave is correct and useful. I tried to just add a little around the edges. If it comes to a competition T-shooting electrical faults I want you on my team!

Pat

 

[MikeD74T]

Loose connection at ground end on ground cable?????
Stuck starter????
Bad starter solenoid ??? Currently (last couple of weeks) my Case 580 displayed clicking when started with the key but will crank when poles of solenoid are jumpered. MikeD74T

 

[wushaw]

Check your cables at the battery to see if there is any blue or white powery stuff on them, this is battery acid which can get inside the cable and cause resistance and the higher the resistance the less voltage will travel through the cable.

 

[Laneman950]

OK, I took the battery and cable to Autozone for testing. The battery had lost 2 volts by the time I got there, so they couldn't test it. I bought a new positive cable just cause, and I bought a new battery since it lost the 2 volts. It fired right up better than ever when I put both in. I'll never know for sure if it was the battery or cable, but the cable looked fine and tested fine with an ohmmeter. Since the battery was the more expensive item I'll say that was the problem just so I feel better.

 

[Laneman950]

Awww now I'm really mad. Today it did the same thing again after a new battery and a new cable...click. I finally tried smacking on the starter and that seems to do the trick. So now it's starter trouble???? Dad gummmmitttt

 

[SPYDERLK]

Awww now I'm really mad. Today it did the same thing again after a new battery and a new cable...click. I finally tried smacking on the starter and that seems to do the trick. So now it's starter trouble???? Dad gummmmitttt

Starter trouble does not fit the original symptoms you reported. Your battery tho, at 12.2V quiescent, was iffy. Have you checked the charging system. Stand back and assess well. It will save you money.
larry

 

[MikeD74T]

Awww now I'm really mad. Today it did the same thing again after a new battery and a new cable...click. I finally tried smacking on the starter and that seems to do the trick. So now it's starter trouble???? Dad gummmmitttt

When smacking the starter provides the solution you need to disassemble the started & clean the brush holders. Not difficult. You might get away with removing the end cap & blowing them out with air. MikeD74T

 

[Laneman950]

I just read a little about starter repair. It said when tapping on the starter makes it work, the problem is usually the starter. It said one of the most common starter problems is the copper contacts need to be replaced. Looks easy, just have to find the parts. A rebuilt starter for this tractor is $400, so I will soon be adding starter rebuilder to my resume.

 

[Soundguy]

Look at it like this.. If your battery lost voltage in a short time.. it NEEDED to be replaced as well.

Often times.. a bad starter that drags can overload a battery and cause early demise.. so don't chalk the battery replacement up as not needed.

Same thing for the charging system. it's not unheard of for a bad alt to take out a battery.. or the other way around. In your case.. you may be lucky.. the starter may have lead to an early demise of the battery.. had you left it.. it may have overworked the alternator and that mighta gone south soon after. Figure that you cut your losses.

I'd check brushes.. and look for proud mice between the segments.. a hacksay blade can be used to undercut the mica just a hair.. and some emory paper can be used to smooth the commie.. etc.. The brushes will wear in soon enough.. though dressing the commie a bit sure helps matters...

Soundguy

 

[patrick_g]

I'd try brake/electric motor cleaner or similar in an aerosol can to be sure things are clean in there before I resorted to opening it up.

If that fails then if the contacts are solid copper (or copper alloy) and not just a heavy plating, you may be able to carefully "dress them" to remove/smooth pitting and roughness that prevents good contact. If when you try to dress them up with a fine grit you find the copper color goes away and leaves a silvery color behind then they need to be replaced for sure as they are not solid, just plated and the plating is history.

Pat