Starting New House Finally!

   / Starting New House Finally! #191  
Alan L. said:
Eddie, about $400-$425 a thousand is about what brick go for around here. We looked at about everyone's brick and the ones we like turned out to be acme. They are a little more expensive for the job because they are a little smaller, I think they call the size builders special or something like that, smaller than the king size.

Hi Alan,

I just checked my receipt from the brick I bought two years ago. I paid $278 per thousand. I'm sure it's gone up since then, and I'm not familiar with "builders special" but there are some huge differnences in price. I bought what is most commonly sold as it was a spec home. I also get a small discount as a contractor and the sales guy was interested in buying the house from me. He didn't, but does live just down the street from me.

From what I'm seeing in your prices, is they are higher then what I'm paying here in Tyler. I don't mean this in a bad way, you have to pay what the going rate is in your area, I just find it interesting that there are these differences.

I lay tile for $2 to $3 a foot. Sometimes less. It all depends on the job and what's involved. New construction is always easier for me, so I can charge less, and be done sooner with more money then a remodel.

Most of my work is repairs and home owners who hire me to remodel a bath or kitchen. The guys making the big money are the ones doing new construction for contractors that they know and work with every day. I sort of think its easier for them to just tell the homeowner, this is what it costs, deal with it. Very few people building a home have any idea what the rates are for subs or that they can find those who are either better, or more affordable. They just rely on what they are told and pay what's charged.

Since you are using a friend to build your house, I'm sure he's taking care of you and you're getting the best deal possible. Things just cost more out your way then here.

Eddie
 
   / Starting New House Finally!
  • Thread Starter
#192  
sr160009 said:
Alan, your house is looking GREAT... I must have missed this post earlier... I am also in the beginning stage of building a house, just closed on our construction loan last week. I am not that far from you, I building in Cooke county real close to the cooke and grayson county line. I am also going with the foam insulation in my house, who was the contractor that sprayed the demalic foam and would you recommend him? I have spoke to demalic rep on the phone and they gave me a guy in the Sherman area that is certified to do this kind of work. Here is my homesite right now.

sr160009, the guy in Sherman is the one that did mine. He is pretty much a sourpuss and very defensive about anything I had to say. However he and his crew busted their tails and did a great job. There is much labor in the foaming and that stuff is hard to control, but they didn't get it where it didn't belong and fixed the places that didn't cover well. Don't hesitate to point out anything you don't like and he'll fix it. He'll ***** and moan and then do a very good job.

Looks like a great place to build a house. I like that red sand over in that direction. We have a little, but mostly clay.
 
   / Starting New House Finally!
  • Thread Starter
#193  
Eddie:

I can see why labor costs might be higher here than there, but it makes no sense to me why materials are more. Everything we have done has been at builder price. He gets the bill and I pay it. The ones we dealed directly with, the foam insulator and a couple of others assured us they were giving us builder price, but wanted the name of the builder for their records. We have multiple bids on some items and others we knew the sub from the work he had done and wanted him. The builder typically uses these subs on spec houses he builds from time to time and always makes a decent profit on the house, and has always had it sold by completion, so I guess their rates must not be too bad. We were told by the paint dealer that our painter was "not the cheapest around", so maybe we could have done better, but they are doing an excellent job so far. I was really impressed that they didn't get any stain or lacquer on the weatherstripping or tracks in the wood Marvin windows. I had been worried about that, but they look factory finished.

It makes no sense to me how a real craftsman can come in and shim all the doors and windows, install all the OSB in the garage (and do a beautiful job),trim out the whole house, install all the interior doors, plus 3 exterior doors, build shelving in all the closets, frame out for the garden tub deck, wrap 2 big beams and mantel with alder, and his labor is $3100. A tile guy comes in for 3 days and his labor is $3500. Makes no sense. But these tile guys are in great demand and hard to schedule.

The tile work is really messing with the budget and we are being very careful about who we choose, to try and save money. One bid labor only was about $500 higher than the other's listed labor component on the whole job. However, the lower one for labor won't lay tile unless he also sells it to you. So, like Harvey said, he is getting it somewhere else. We are down to the wire and need it done, but we are going to talk to the original one again and we might go down to a tile outlet and buy the tile ourselves. I hope the quality is OK if we go that route rather than using Daltile.

The painter gets to re-lacquer the mudroom cabinets since they didn't secure the door and sand got in there. My wife found it open a couple of ours after they left the job last night and she closed it. The painter showed up this morning complaining that we had done it, but it had been his crew, not us.

We'd like to get the floors down by 4/30, because I will have to pay a fee to hold my interest rate if we don't close the permanent by then. So, the quicker we get the tile down the quicker we can close.

This has been a real experience, I think the hardest is that most of it has happened during my most busy work schedule, so its been tough stewing over decisions with little time.

Its been fun getting feedback from everyone, it makes the whole process more fun sharing the progress.
 
   / Starting New House Finally! #194  
Alan,

I'm confused about the materials differences too, but think maybe it's the suppliers have more overhead there then here. Land is allot cheaper here, so it's easier to store materials. Tyler Brick has over ten acres of land, and it's all full of material. I doubt too many places can do that and support a major market.

When I first started working here, I subed for a few local builders and was told be them who to use for materials. I set up an account and used that company for my first home and was shocked what they charged me on materials. I could get framing studs for almost a quarter cheaper at Home Depot then they charged me after my builders discount. I shoped around and now use McCoys. With my discount, I can get materials cheaper there then anyplace else. What's interesting to me is that most of the big name builders here all use that original company that I first used that is so expensive. They use them because they are very fast and provide exceptional service. If you need twenty sheets of OSB, they will have it on site in hours, or first thing the next morning. McCoys might take a day or two depending on demand.

Tile is the same way. Daltile is the most common, so I picked a style and compared prices. The fanciest store around was also the most expensive. Home Depot had the same tile for quite a bit less, and the so called wholesaler also had it for about what Home Depot did. But my realtor told me about Whitehouse Floors and More, where I get tile by the case for ALLOT cheaper then Home Depot or anyplace else.

All tile from the same manufacturer with the same name is exactly the same at every store. But some places like Home Depot have a set markup, other stores are more flexible in what they charge. Shop around and the savings can be significant.

Grout and thinset is about the lowest at the box stores. I don't buy that from the tile store, just tile.

The tile store also has the best prices on carpet. Add padding and instalation to it and the diferince is almost rediculous. 4 star carpet with free pad and instalastion compared to more at the box stores for just a 3 star carpet at about the same price. They try to fool people and sell carpet by the foot to get a low number.

I haven't found anybody that can compete with the box stores on laminate flooring. There is some huge differences in quality, but for $2 a ft on up, you are into some decent stuff. The big secret to laminates is the padding underneath. Only use the felt underlayment with a vapor barrier.

Eddie
 
   / Starting New House Finally!
  • Thread Starter
#195  
Eddie, we have learned some of the same things about HD and Lowes. Forget buying carpet there, they sell it by the foot. We have never paid even $20 a yard for carpet, and don't plan to spend any more than that, and hopefully less.

They didn't have any wood floors we were interested in, and we weren't happy with anything other than solid hardwood that could be finished to our specs. Worried about possible moisture problems on the slab, but everyone assures us that the way its done will be fine.

About 20 years ago I bought some cheap tile at Payless and layed it myself. It was shiny white ceramic tile, and after a while it started turning pink. When I went to replace some of it I found it was an odd size and thickness, and not white after all. I found the Daltile to be much higher in quality. We have seen tumbled stone at big tile outlets for as little as $4 a foot, whereas we are being quoted $7 and up, but I was just worried about the quality of the tile. The guy that bid the labor is coming tomorrow and is willing to lay any tile we choose and will make suggestions and will get us the Daltile at his cost, which he claims is way off what they mark it, as little has half. Keep in mind however that he charges about $6.50 for wall tile and $2.50 up to $3.50 for the floor tile. Plus, he is charging for installing the concrete backer board and underlayment for the bath upstairs. He suggests we get cheap floor tile for the mudroom as we were even considering just leaving it concrete. I've done it in the past but there is more to laying tile than getting it straight, there is an art to it, in making it look good, and thus why you pay a professional who can picture the finished product. I've seen some very straight tile jobs that looked like crap.

During he framing stage I took our bills and shopped both HD and Lowes and found that Foxworth, who furnished our materials, was considerably less on most items. Marvin windows, well you can only get them from the manufacturer's rep, and the price we paid was considerably less than most I found on the internet were paying. We are getting granite in the kitchen, real marble in the master bath, and laminate in the utility/mudroom for $3200, which I thought was a good deal. Total roofing labor and materials were less than $5000, bricklaying was less than I expected. Cultured stone for the fireplace was $1000 because of hearthstones, delivery and sales tax, which was more than I expected. A 150 sq foot concrete slab 10 feet in the air on the back of the house inaccessible by the cement truck (who only brought 1.5 yards of lightweight concrete) was only $650. The contractor got the cement up there with his front end loader and 5-gallon buckets. Pretty good deal. The metal pan under the concrete cost more, and the railing will cost even more. Strange. I spent $16,785 for two Trane HVAC systems with return air in every room, 16 SEER 2-stage units (16i) with variable speed air handlers. Also included an energy recovery ventilation system and auxilliary minisplit a/c unit in the master bedroom. Could have had 3 x 2-ton Rheem 13-SEER standard units with ERV and no minisplit for $13,500. I thought the $3000+ was worth the difference in quality and energy efficiency. Could have insulated the whole house for $3000 with fiberglass but used mostly foam for $8600. Tankless water heater and related propane mechanical, etc etc. Just some thoughts on why this dang thing cost $20,000 more than we figured......

I think part of our costs relate to some special features, the upstairs balcony we decked with metal covered by concrete so it would never leak, some engineering headscratchers that cost extra framing labor (framer said he didnt' charge us for the engineering), and the fact that my friend underestimated the selections we would make along the way when we first did the budget. While not elaborate or pretentious as everyone can tell from the pics, there were some selections of high quality materials and building methods that really added to the cost, but we felt like we needed. The open design of the house required some expensive custom glue-lam beams and custom web trusses, all of which increased materials and labor. We put in 320-amp electrical service and the electrician said he has never used as much "2-way" or "3-way" wiring in a house. Miles of copper but we don't have far to go to turn out any lights.

One thing that shocked me is the front door. I was not comfortable bricking in a door that would sag, leak, or not hold up. So we went with Thermatru. The fiberglass door with no sidelights and no transom was almost $1500. It looks very little better to me than the $300 Masonite exterior fiberglass doors in other parts of the house (by the way we have 9 exterior doors for 2 people???). We spent $2300 on the Andersen french doors and they are 10 times more substantial and attractive than the front door. Andersen does not even make front entry doors for some reason.

The only thing I regret about the whole project is lack of planning for specific items ahead of time, then scrambling around trying to fit stuff into the expanding budget. If I ever build another house, every detail down to the window treatments will be spec'd in advance. Too many decisions under too much pressure otherwise.

Tomorrow we go for light fixtures, mostly these are ceiling fans. Anyone have opinions on the quality of fixtures from Lowes? At this point I am thinking about soldering some light bulbs from the exposed wires.......
 
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   / Starting New House Finally! #196  
Alan,

Funny you should mention light fixtures. Lows and Home Depot have quite a few lights for diffrent rooms, but it's almost impossible to do an entire house whith what they have available that will match and go together.

Lights are grouped into what is called a "family."

If you go to a lighting store, you can select a family (style) of lights that you like. Then they can order every light that you need in your home to be in the same family. From the ceiling fans to the wall scones and hall lights. Everything will match.

Shopping for lights at a box store will take you hours and hours trying to find what you like and how it will match your other lights. Going to a light store will take less time because all you have to do it decide on the family of lights that you like and then order them.

If you have a certain price level of lights that you like at Lowes or any other box store, you just stay in that same price range at the lighting store. The one I use will be cheaper for the same style light at Lowes, but have more options, include all the bulbs and deliver them to the house for free.

I don't know your area, but your builder should be familiar with the lighting stores there and recomend one or two. It's worth your time to find the lights you really want and not try to find some that will make do.

Eddie
 
   / Starting New House Finally!
  • Thread Starter
#197  
Wow, you read my epistle pretty quick Eddie.

We'll try a light shop tomorrow and I'll try to check in with my builder friend for a recommendation. I just assumed a specialty shop would be more expensive.

Actually most of the lighting in the house is can lights which are already installed. We will have bathroom fixtures to pick out, a chandelier over the dining table, a light over each of the 2 kitchen sinks, and the rest are ceiling fans I think.

Thanks for your invaluable help.
 
   / Starting New House Finally! #198  
Alan,

I might be going out on a limb here. I seem to recall that early on you were quite firm about holdong the line on the budget. Then as progress was made you yielded. I can see that the overages are your decisions, not really what is meant by over runs. Basicallya s your home progressed you upgraded to higher quality materials, so it has been your choice ('cept for the extra brick:)).

I learned form my first house on exterior lighting, put your exterior lights up high. Those coach lights next to the man doors do nothing to shed light on a patio. We also went to the lighting houses and got better pricing.

I am anxiouly awaiting pics of the kitchen with the countertops. Your satin looks awsome BTW.
 
   / Starting New House Finally!
  • Thread Starter
#199  
We went to 2 lighting stores Saturday and found little that we considered reasonable pricing, even with 25% discount. The other thing we learned is that we should have done the selections 2 weeks ago, as now we only have a couple of days and they need to be installed.

I guess this means we have to buy stock items and bring them home on Wednesday for installation Thursday.

Really most of our fixtures are ceiling fans. There are some ceiling porch fixtures, 2 kitchen and 1 dining room fixtures, bathroom fixtures, and the rest are fans.

Hopefully the countertops will be in this week, as will the rock on the fireplace.
 
   / Starting New House Finally!
  • Thread Starter
#200  
A word on the tile. We had one bid from a guy that was strictly labor. Seemed high, so we got another one for labor and materials, with labor split out. While the labor was less, he would not let us purchase our own tile.

We called the original guy back in yesterday and he not only said he would lay tile we buy, but also gave us the prices on the Daltile that we wanted, and it was considerably less than the other guy. Also, the shower pan and some other materials were included in his "labor" figure whereas the other guy listed them separately as materials.

Bottom line, we are saving about $1000 on the tile work for having been patient with making a deal.

Rox, about the budget, the mistake I think we made is that we were unrealistic with the budget in that we weren't going to be happy with the allowances that we had.

The lender actually said that their standard rule of thumb construction cost on a custom home in this area is $107 per sq ft of living area, and we are coming in below that because the nice arrangement we have with my friend/builder. If we kept the plan the same and got some other things we wanted we easily could have spent another $50K, so we bit the bullet and went for it on some things, we stayed on budget in other areas. One area we struggled with early was whether to go with cedar on the large porches, which was quite expensive. The porch with the cedar will be the focal point of our outdoor living, and everyone that has seen it loves it. So we don't regret this decision although it caused us to pull back some in other areas. If I was 25 I would have gone about it differently, but this land can't be replaced (in this area) and I can only do it right once on this property, so we went with what we think will stay with us for a long time.
 

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