starting observation

Soundguy · Dec 21, 2004

First.. please no flames.. I left my asbestos underware home today - ok? This is to provoke peacefull discussion....

Now.. as most of you know.. I'm very close to purchasing an economy model.. 2wd/20hp NO ps. This has been a lingering thought for a couple years now, and is even more emphasized by the fact that one of my antiques is down for repair right now.

I read every post that pops up here. So far, since it has gotten cold ( last month or so in some areas )... Starting problems or extended start times appear to be the 'norm'.

Why are these chineese diesels harder to start that another 'x' brand diesel. As a compression engine, one would assume that they have sufficient compression to to get that air nice and hot.. they DO have glow plugs...

I know the fit finish is rough.. and some of the technology is dated.. but the basics of the diesel engine are well established. What is so different about these engines.. than say.. a kubota or NH ( jap ) engine? Less tolerances? Inferior metal / metalurgy? ( maybee.. but how does that affect starting? ).

thanks

Soundguy

JerryG · Dec 21, 2004

Like you Soundguy, I don't own a Chinese tractor. I do like to keep up with all make, so I read this forum always. It seems to me that it would have to do with the injectors or the pump. Can anyone say with any certainty if this is the case?

RobS · Dec 21, 2004

Could be any number of things and likely a combination. A chief culprit is probably the fuel injectors. More "modern" diesels have very precise injectors with tightly controlled spray patterns, droplet size etc. This all costs more money to manufacture but pays off in fuel economy and emissions. The older technology will be less precise, more variation in spray patterns, volume and droplet sizes all leading to more variation in starting/running.

You're right in that the basic concept of the engine hasn't changed in generations but the technology, precision and accuracy of manufacturing sure has /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

greg_g · Dec 21, 2004

As I believe you already realize, "starting time" for diesel engines is inversely proportional to the ambient temperature. It's just one of those universal truths. Diesels are diesels, no matter who makes them. Sit back and think about the nature of diesel ignition for a second - you're basically trying to start a fire, without a match.

That said, some do a better job in overcoming this than others. I now own - or have owned - diesels made by Renault, John Deere, Mercedes, Yanmar, Jinma, and KAMA. The JDs and Yanmar (literally one in the same) usually could be depended upon to start under most conditions. The Renault never failed, but the Mercedes won't start below 15F without plugging in the block heater. The Germans however, thought ahead - and included a block heater as standard equipment. On the Chinese front, my KAMA has no glow plugs, no Thermo-start, no aftermarket heating device of any kind. It's only been down to 16F so far this fall, but the KAMA starts every morning. Yet my former (glow plug) Jinmas on the other hand, could be relied upon NOT to start below freezing - unless I stuck a Kat's heater on the starter housing overnight.

That, by the way, is not a diesel problem. It's a starter problem, but is seemingly an isolated Jinma-only problem. Granted, those with the starter motor problem have their starting issues magnified. But I think basically, that "hard starting Jinmas" can be tracked down to pre-combustion chamber design and/or cheap fuel injectors, and an inadequate glow plug circuit.

Remember, these engines were originally designed for use by Chinese farmers, who started them with a hand crank. Remnants of the design are still found in the form of the quick drain valve on the block, and hand cranking instructions in the translated owner's manual. The practice was to bring the tractor back home after a cold day in the fields, and DRAIN THE BLOCK. In the morning, the farmer would come out with a container of hot water, and refill the cooling system. Cold weather starting was essentially factored out. For export, YangDong simply tried to engineer thermal/electric start assist into the same old engine design. I've long maintained Jinma export models were designed by accountants. This is one of the areas it shows up.

Short version, cold starting issues vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. Unfortunately - if you're limiting yourself to 20hp/2wd/no PS - I think you've pretty much painted yourself into a corner.

The good news is, you live in Florida.

//greg//

MarkNHow · Dec 21, 2004

I have a 284LE and it starts fine in cold weather. I live in central IA and last year was my first winter with the tractor. It would start at -5 F no problem. I have the ford starter and do use the glow plugs. It is in a garage but I don't have any type of heater for it. From the different post I read I originally thought it was a bad batch of starters.

Mark H

cmperry · Dec 21, 2004

Are these starting issues with the Jinma widespread or is it a problem with a few???I have a Jinma 224 (live in Maine) and when it's cold i plug my coolant/block heater in,go get a coffee and when I come out she starts right up (with 20 second glow)...am I just lucky or does the lack of heaters in some cases contribute to the starting problems???anyway..just a thought. Merry Christmas to everyone!!!!!!!! (great board!!!!!!)

mark1 · Dec 21, 2004

I too have seen a lot of discussion about hard starting. Myself I have 2 Jinmas both are 284's Here in upstate new york it gets mighty cold.and so far for over 2 years I have absolutly no problem starting either one. I do not have any type of engine heater, they are kept inside my seperate metal garage where many swear it's colder in there than outside. I just use the glow plugs for 15-20 seconds and crank her up. I never even used the decompression levers till I learned about them during the CTOA seminar this past August. Yesterday it was -4 and they both fired right up.. I think most of the problems are that many of Jinma owners are first time owners and users and have to work through the "learning curve" /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

johnk · Dec 21, 2004

The problems I had were the starter not engaging. Since I changed starters and put a magnetic kats heater on the starter it started yesterday when it was 2 degrees and -20 chill factor. I don't think the problem was actually with the firing of the fuel as it was starter engagment. mine starts fine as long as the starter engages.

Matt_A · Dec 21, 2004

Soundguy,
I have the basic Farm Pro(2420 I think) and I don't have starting problems. It is two years old and I'm still on the orginal battery. I actually only used it about 6 times this summer and it sat idle all fall. I drove it back from my property last weekend and it ran fine. I cranked it up day before yesterday in 20 degree weather and it started fine.

Soundguy · Dec 21, 2004

( you're basically trying to start a fire, without a match.
)

Except that you are compressing an air fuel mixture beyond the flashpoint... that's the whole point of a compression engine..

( Diesels are diesels, no matter who makes them )

( That said, some do a better job in overcoming this than others )

Kinda makes the statement before that moot. If diesels are diesels no matter who makes them.. yet... some make them better than others then? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif FWIW my 3 diesles start fine.. the nh 1920 used glow , though seemed to start without it.. 7610 starts without it.. both of those start before I can even release the key. The yanmar without using thermostart kicks on about 3rd rev...

Though not mine.. i have seen a friends diesel ford workmaster and oliver 55 need a whif of ether to start.. but I think that is a factor of low compression due to extreme age... vs. design. ( Besides.. his oliver 55 starts fine without the ether.. I've started it many times.. I don't know why he insists on using it...oh well.. he's too old to convice him otherwise... I should just buy him a can of compressed air and put a carquest ether sticker on it.. probably add a few years to the tractors life /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif .)

( if you're limiting yourself to 20hp/2wd/no PS - I think you've pretty much painted yourself into a corner.
)

I don't see how the lack or addition of power steering, or how many drive wheels there are will affect starting. I don't see how that paints me into a corner on the starting issue.

Soundguy

andyspain · Dec 21, 2004

Hi all, Most diesel engine glow plugs are set on a timer. When you turn the ignition key to the second notch a white light glows and starting should not be attempted until the light goes out automatically. Our Jinma's come equipped with the countdown methods, meaning you have to guess by counting down from one to twenty seconds (20 seconds I read somewhere, although I think that's a lot) before starting. Its cold in northern Spain at the moment, but I don't have any problem with my 284. Although being new I obviously have very good compression. A fact that everybody seems to have missed, compression is very important for ignition. If you have an old tractor starting will be more difficult. I knew a gent in Greece who had to pour oil into the air inlet of his unimog to start it! This increases the compression. Always nice to chat gents. Bye for now Andy

JohnS · Dec 21, 2004

The starter issue was only with Y380/Y385 engines. Different starter in the 2cyl.

I see a lonnnggggg.... discussion between you and Greg comming /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif But, would consider it is ALL moot, because of where you live. When it is 20F, does anyone go outside in FL? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

billbill1 · Dec 21, 2004

Soundguy, I started my 284 on Saturday and it was 7 degrees without the wind chill factor. It started right up. I installed a NAPA lower radiator hose heater and I use it, I don't have to but it seems to start faster with it and it gives me piece of mind to start a warm engine. I would doubt that you would have any problem at all in Florida. It took a new warranty starter for me to get to this point and learning how my tractor starts. No more than it would cost you, why wouldn't you get power steering and 4WD?

Bill

greg_g · Dec 21, 2004

( I don't see how the lack or addition of power steering, or how many drive wheels there are will affect starting. I don't see how that paints me into a corner on the starting issue. )
You missed the point (more than one actually). The fact that you've decided upon getting a 20hp/2wd Chinese tractor without power steering, pretty much narrows the field down to the JM200 or branded equivalent. And the vast majority of starting issues seem to be raised by Jinma owners.

THAT's the corner to which I referred. But if it's going to be a Florida tractor, none of this really matters anyway.

//greg//

thegreatrandini · Dec 21, 2004

When u have high compression and low temp (say 20 degrees or less) it takes alot of horsepower to turn the engine over. I don't have a chineese tractor but my Yanmar's starter strains to turn the motor over in cold weather. If I don't use the correct oil u can forget it. It turns fine with the compression release engaged but when you hit that baby it only turns a couple revs with any speed. I have to heat the engine. No big deal for me. I also use the ts. As u lose compression, combustion is more difficult but you make up for it with an easier turning engine....... my opinion.... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Egon · Dec 21, 2004

one of my antiques is down for repair right now.

Need some white lithum grease??

Egon /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

billbill1 · Dec 21, 2004

Randini, where are you in NE Kansas? I'm outside of Lawrence (Lecompton).

bluechip · Dec 21, 2004

I'll share my observation for what its worth. 1st, as with many of the issues posted, a few people can make it appear everyon has the same problem, people without problems seldom post. We have had several post here that they start fine. I do think the Yangdong Y380 and Y385 engines tend to be a little more difficult to start than others I have tried. The KAMA seems to start the best out of the Chinese brands I'm involved with, surprised me because as Greg says, no factory installed starting aids. I think the glow plugs are a big part of it, they are not the very most reliable, and they seem to cool quickly. This is aggrevated by the momentary contact for glow plugs on the stock ignition switch.

Most of these tractors are also new, so may not have the very best ring seating, etc yet. Remember when engines had to be broken in? We are still living in those "good ole days" with our tractors.

The Chinese oil gets thick as beeswax in the cold, Many importers do not change this oil, choosing to use it for break in before discarding it. Fine in warm weather but...

Same with hydraulic oil, cold oil puts a load on the starter because the pump is running all the time so lighter hyd. oil will help speed up the starting process.

I have not seen the cold weather starter motor problem myself yet, perhaps because we are in the south. But the 2cyl and 3cyl use the same starter, perhaps it a relationship with the ring gear which may be different.

But like someone said, I don't think you will have much trouble in Florida, even with the Chinese oil...

SPIKER · Dec 21, 2004

I'm With JohnS and BChip: I have not had ANY issues starting my jinma284 even at -20 degrees last year when I got stuck in the drive! I SWORE I was going to need the charger and some sort of way to heat the tractor up prior to getting her running as I hadn't started her in over a month!... anyhow fI first ran into barn and plugged in the 500 watt shop halogen lamp/light and set it on the fornt wheel pinting at the injector pum at about 16" away. then went into farm house and got on the carharts and boots, (as I was stuck way at the end of drive having not been at the farm house in a long time snow blowing blizzard had a 20" drift at the edge on top of 8~10' wide snow plow piles.) it took me about 15 min to get some coffee going and the carharts on and boots on. then off to barn to try and get the car un-stuck. I hit the glow plugs, held them 15 sec, and cranked her. she smoked a bit and sputtered a bit and I let of the starter as she seemed to try & start (about 10 seconds on starter) I waited about 30 sec and hit the glow plugs for 10 count & starter again more smoke & sputtering but no running. I tried it righ away onto the glow plugs and she fired right off after 5sec of starter (I think if i had cranked her a few sec longer any of the first two times she would have started) anyhow 3 others close by also have jinmas and theirs started that cold spell too as every one of us needed to plow drives. one guy does keep his in garage which is semi heated and the other guy uses block heater but also has it in a lean too only. both of these guys are ones who got tractors from ME when I bought 4 in a container... the other one is in TX and he just sent a x-mas note stating his is running great and used every day too (he posts on here some times too!) so far ALL of us are useing the orriginal 3 yr old china battery too! Also we had inimate discussion on HOW to accuratly charge a NEW battery up the right way /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif and proper grounding and cleaning of the contact points of the battery cables. now it also could be there were a few bad starters back a year or so too.?

anyhow I agree I think some are making it sound like the jinmas are poor starting but I think it leads back to a few items, (lowest cost often ='s lower knowlage on the new users part, poor battery hookups, possbable bad starter issues with some of them...

anyhow I think you would be very pleased with her as you seem to know HOW and WHAT to do with OLD iron so the NEW one should be running well for you... (though I think I woudl want Powersteering but that is just ME. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Mark M /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

theoldpioneer · Dec 22, 2004

Wow, this is a timely topic for me! I just came in from the back lot after finally getting my 254 started. It wouldn't start this past Saturday morning or any day since. I picked up a water heater yesterday morning from NAPA and after struggling to find hoses with the right bends, I got it in, heated up the water, and the little guy started up with a touch. I don't know about the typical chinese tractor, but mine seems to need to be toasty.

For those of you who installed water heaters, maybe you could help me with a small problem. I installed mine on the lower radiator hose (I've never seen one installed anyplace else), but I had trouble finding hoses to go from radiator to heater and heater to water port on the block. What kind or part number of hoses did you use to install the heater? I jury rigged mine with part of the original hose and some high pressure black hose from Tractor Supply. I got it in but it leaks. My other question is, where's the glow plug? I'm suspicious that if mine has one, it may not be working -- but I can't find it against my Chinese diagram. Tomorrow, I get to plow our road the first time --15 inches of snow by Friday!javascript:void(0)