Starting Procedure

/ Starting Procedure #41  
The "feel" is pretty misleading on my 2660 and 5030 both. These things top out at a little over 3000, so half throttle or 1500 really isn't running it all that hard in my opinion. I really fail to see the reason for concern, but who knows.

Agree. With mine, the top is 3000-3200. Screaming. Realistic top end is 2900. It won't go lower than 1050, so starting/warming up at 1300-1350 is pretty much perfect. The band just isn't as wide as a car that can idle at 900 and go to 5500-6000. That half throttle thing is pretty much just what happens anyhow.
 
/ Starting Procedure #42  
...half throttle or 1500 [RPM]...

...top is 3000-3200 [RPM]...won't go lower than 1050, so starting/warming up at 1300-1350 is pretty much perfect.

You aren't including that idle is ~1,000 RPM, so 1/2 throttle is ~2,000 RPM.

Starting/warming at 1,300 to 1,350 RPM represents approximately 15% throttle. Even 1,500 RPM represents 25% throttle.

That would be squarely in the "crack the throttle" camp.

Next time you fire up your machine, stone cold, run it straight up to 2,000 RPM and let it sit. I'd bet honest money that you couldn't stand it...you'd back it down to somewhere in the 1,300 to 1,500 range within 15 seconds. Cracked throttle.

That's my guess, anyway. Just wanted to honestly clarify what 1/2 throttle represents.
 
/ Starting Procedure #43  
You aren't including that idle is ~1,000 RPM, so 1/2 throttle is ~2,000 RPM.

Next time you fire up your machine, stone cold, run it straight up to 2,000 RPM and let it sit. I'd bet honest money that you couldn't stand it...you'd back it down to somewhere in the 1,300 to 1,500 range within 15 seconds. Cracked throttle.

I think that's right, ~2,000 rpm...and that's what I did yesterday with the BX25, for the first time, after reading this thread. And you're right, after just 15-20 seconds I backed it down from 2,000 to maybe 1,500...just didn't sound or feel right.

Uh oh, guess I've become my dad.;)
 
/ Starting Procedure #44  
You aren't including that idle is ~1,000 RPM, so 1/2 throttle is ~2,000 RPM.

Starting/warming at 1,300 to 1,350 RPM represents approximately 15% throttle. Even 1,500 RPM represents 25% throttle.

That would be squarely in the "crack the throttle" camp.

Next time you fire up your machine, stone cold, run it straight up to 2,000 RPM and let it sit. I'd bet honest money that you couldn't stand it...you'd back it down to somewhere in the 1,300 to 1,500 range within 15 seconds. Cracked throttle.

That's my guess, anyway. Just wanted to honestly clarify what 1/2 throttle represents.

Good grief, I don't get that exact. I pull the throttle down to "about" half way and let it warm up. I can say that I NEVER let my BX idle; jars my darned teeth out and cracked the breather bracket on my BX2200.

I think I am missing something though, as my max RPM is about 3200, so how is 1500 not "about" half throttle.

If I want to experiment, I will have to take my glasses with me to see the tachometer:eek:

That is an interesting question though and I will try it the next time I start my BX or L up to see exactly "about" what my warm up is.
 
/ Starting Procedure
  • Thread Starter
#45  
You aren't including that idle is ~1,000 RPM, so 1/2 throttle is ~2,000 RPM.

Starting/warming at 1,300 to 1,350 RPM represents approximately 15% throttle. Even 1,500 RPM represents 25% throttle.

That would be squarely in the "crack the throttle" camp.

Next time you fire up your machine, stone cold, run it straight up to 2,000 RPM and let it sit. I'd bet honest money that you couldn't stand it...you'd back it down to somewhere in the 1,300 to 1,500 range within 15 seconds. Cracked throttle.

That's my guess, anyway. Just wanted to honestly clarify what 1/2 throttle represents.


Very good point for the sake of argument. Is it possible that the manual writers and the engineers got together and decided what half throttle actually means? Half throttle means just that, half of the pull on the stick. Otherwise I would assume that they would say half max rpm? On my BX half throttle is subjective as a spot, but I find that 2000-2200 rpm in the half throttle range. I agree with others that I could tolerate idling at that rpm for maybe 30 seconds, couldn't bear it. Is idle a bad thing? I let my tractor isle, at idle when I need to do something else for a minute. Never longer than a minute or two, but I gather from this thread that may not be so good?
 
/ Starting Procedure #46  
Letting it idle won't hurt anything..It's better that restarting all the time. Again..By RTV1100 has the same engine as my BX...It defaults to idle.
 
/ Starting Procedure #47  
You aren't including that idle is ~1,000 RPM, so 1/2 throttle is ~2,000 RPM.

Starting/warming at 1,300 to 1,350 RPM represents approximately 15% throttle. Even 1,500 RPM represents 25% throttle.

That would be squarely in the "crack the throttle" camp.

Next time you fire up your machine, stone cold, run it straight up to 2,000 RPM and let it sit. I'd bet honest money that you couldn't stand it...you'd back it down to somewhere in the 1,300 to 1,500 range within 15 seconds. Cracked throttle.

That's my guess, anyway. Just wanted to honestly clarify what 1/2 throttle represents.

Interesting. If 2000 or 2100 rpm is what is defined as half throttle start up, you are correct. That isn't going to happen. I'll stick with my 1300 start/warm up, thank you.

If that shortens the life of my Kubota to "only" 3000 hours, then so be it. Given my age and at my present rate of usage, 60-80 hours a years, my kids will dealing with the issue and I will not care so much.
 
/ Starting Procedure #48  
It would seem we're all doing the exact same thing...just have a little different way of looking at it.

For the sake of discussion, like Mr. Poldies4 my tractor idles quite a bit. Just circumstance, I guess. Usually have it at or just above idle when pulling trailers, picking up sticks, or getting dog poo with the FEL. Don't know why. Doesn't bother me much. And it hasn't complained yet either. I like the sound.
 
/ Starting Procedure #49  
Ok, I'm back with the results of the chilled oil test. This test took a little longer than I thought it was going to. For this to be a real test I decided against pouring oil through a funnel as suggested. Instead I fabricated a test jig, consisting of an automotive oil pump scavenged from the junk bin. The pump has a 5/8" inlet and where the oil exits, I fabricated a cover plate/ reaction arm that I threaded with a 1/2" nipple. Attached to the nipple is a 1/2" id hose that dumps into a gallon jug. The pump was chucked up in a drill press, set to rotate at 650 RPM. The pump inlet pipe was placed into the test quart bottle of oil, to within a half an inch of the bottom of the quart bottle. The lift distance between the floor of the pump and the initial oil level in the bottle was about three inches. The test oil was Chevron Delo 15W-40. I placed two quarts in the freezer the other day and left two quarts on the workbench. At the time of the test, the cold oil was at 4 degrees F and the room temperature oil was at 65 degrees

Test procedure: Started drill press and stopwatch simultaneously. Clicked the stopwatch split button when I heard the drill press load down. Clicked the stop button when I heard the pump suck air. Between tests, I let the oil drain back out of the pump and suction tube.

Conclusions: The two room temperature samples took 0.8 seconds to draw the oil up the suction pipe, where the cold samples took 1.3 seconds.
The two room temperature samples took 32 seconds to transfer the quart of oil, where the cold samples took 34 seconds. The most noticeable difference being the increased load placed on the drill press motor, when pumping the cold samples.

I use 15W-40 year round, but the winter temperatures here are rarely below freezing. In colder climates, thinner oil would be preferred. Kubota's recommendation is a bit confusing, stating that a 10W-30 or 10W-40 can be used from temperatures above 77F to below 32F

When I start, I pull the throttle about half distance. I don't know the engine speed, for there is no tachometer. I would estimate it is between 1600 and 1800 RPM

I hope you find this informative. If nothing else, it should generate more discussion
 
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/ Starting Procedure #50  
I am impressed! There is nothing like some hard data to help people make a decision. I was suprised by the results. They also give me some comfort in not switching to 10W-40 in the winter.
Thanks for the using your "laboratory" to shed some light on this question.
By the way, my B7800 manual says "set the throttle lever to about 1/2 way." It says nothing about RPMs.
 
/ Starting Procedure
  • Thread Starter
#51  
I am impressed! There is nothing like some hard data to help people make a decision. I was suprised by the results. They also give me some comfort in not switching to 10W-40 in the winter.
Thanks for the using your "laboratory" to shed some light on this question.
By the way, my B7800 manual says "set the throttle lever to about 1/2 way." It says nothing about RPMs.

Exactly, half throttle is not half rpm. I tried many variations this week, and found the best for my tractor(according to how it sounded) was half or so throttle until start, then ease it back to 14-1500 to warm up. Sounds real nice at those levels. That's my for what it is worth
 
/ Starting Procedure #52  
Yesterday in preparation for the coming storms I went out with my wife to hook up to the FEL on my BX2660 and move stuff under roof. I took my glasses as unlike my other tractors the BX has very small digital tach which I cannot read without glasses. I cranked it up the way I usually do; nothing precise. The engine sounded "about right" to me. I put my glasses on and to my surprise I was turning 2350 RPM's. It did not "sound" too fast to me, but I dropped it down to 1500. I must interject that ALL these engines sound too fast especially my John Deere 425 gas and even my L5030 when running it at the PTO speed; too many years farming with the old iron I guess.

My L5030 "half throttle" start up is 1300-1500 RPM's, but it has an easily readable tach, so that might have influenced my perception of "half throttle".

This has been a very interesting thread and just goes to show that no matter how long you have been operating machinery, it sure doesn't hurt to re-examine your operation at times; might just learn something. I am going to use my glasses to warm my BX up until I can get right around 1500 RPM's consistently; 2350 doesn't "sound" too fast to me, but saying it out loud sure does.
 
/ Starting Procedure #53  
IBNXE; I thank you for your time and effort put into your test. I don't want to dispute your findings but I do want to interject a few things. There are many oil passages in an engine that are very small. Small enough that a cold heavy oil will not flow through with any speed. Most oil pressure gauges take there reading quite often right at oil filter which is the first to get oil. So watching the oil light go out does not tell you much about the lubrication of the engine. Cam shafts and top end valve trains have very small oil passages and it is not unusual for cold heavy oil to take 90 seconds to get lubrication to those areas.
:)I realize most of your readers live in a part of the world that never experience minus 20F or even -40F. I do so I have done allot of research and read allot about cold weather engine treatment. Believe me when I say that if I used Kubotas engine starting procedure I would have been out of business years ago.
 
/ Starting Procedure #54  
IBNXE; I thank you for your time and effort put into your test. I don't want to dispute your findings but I do want to interject a few things. There are many oil passages in an engine that are very small. Small enough that a cold heavy oil will not flow through with any speed. Most oil pressure gauges take there reading quite often right at oil filter which is the first to get oil. So watching the oil light go out does not tell you much about the lubrication of the engine. Cam shafts and top end valve trains have very small oil passages and it is not unusual for cold heavy oil to take 90 seconds to get lubrication to those areas.
:)I realize most of your readers live in a part of the world that never experience minus 20F or even -40F. I do so I have done allot of research and read allot about cold weather engine treatment. Believe me when I say that if I used Kubotas engine starting procedure I would have been out of business years ago.

Believe it or not, engine manufacturers design the size of these small oil passages to limit flow to certain areas of the engine. These smaller passages are typically to feed oil to the rocker arms and valves. Flow to these areas is limited, as to not exceed the rate that the oil can drain back to the crankcase sump. In the past, I have up-sized drilled oil passages, on blocks used for racing purposes to increase flow to these areas.

You haven't mentioned where you are from. Here in Puget Sound area of western Washington, it rarely gets much below freezing. In this area I can easily run the same grade of oil all year long.
 
/ Starting Procedure #55  
Believe it or not, engine manufacturers design the size of these small oil passages to limit flow to certain areas of the engine. These smaller passages are typically to feed oil to the rocker arms and valves. Flow to these areas is limited, as to not exceed the rate that the oil can drain back to the crankcase sump. In the past, I have up-sized drilled oil passages, on blocks used for racing purposes to increase flow to these areas.

You haven't mentioned where you are from. Here in Puget Sound area of western Washington, it rarely gets much below freezing. In this area I can easily run the same grade of oil all year long.

Limit yes not starve which is what happens with heavy oil at temperatures below its design.
I live in the northern prairies of Canada. I have seen many engines ruined by cold weather starts. People can do what ever they want. Engineers/manufactures are not always right with there recommendations.
 
/ Starting Procedure #56  
Seems like we might be straying a little and going from "starting procedure" to "starting procedure in extreme temperatures".

I would imagine that if I lived in the northern climes, it would be prudent to modify starting and operating procedures. I doubt that I would start anything without some type of preheating. Many years ago, I literally blew the oil filters off my cars by cranking them up without preheating.
 
/ Starting Procedure #57  
Seems like we might be straying a little and going from "starting procedure" to "starting procedure in extreme temperatures".

I would imagine that if I lived in the northern climes, it would be prudent to modify starting and operating procedures. I doubt that I would start anything without some type of preheating. Many years ago, I literally blew the oil filters off my cars by cranking them up without preheating.

In a previous job, I designed substation transformers. We had a standard manual that went out with all transformers. The only time I had to write a custom manual was for one that I designed for northern Alaska. In extreme cold, sometimes things are a bit different. That series of transformers would have destroyed themselves if they were started in the normal fashion.

In the part of the thread about what rpm is half throttle, I would have thought folks would report that "my tractor turns x rpm at half throttle." I am reasonably confident Kubota means "grab hold of that handle and move it somewhere close to the halfway point."

As for the gentleman that did the test with the oil pump: I was very impressed everything he said. He is sharp as a tack, and he knows what he is talking about, and that shines right through.

Most modern engines have a bypass in their filter in the event that they may somehow become clogged, but also to prevent them from simply blowing apart their shell. I have seen these shells fracture, but mostly, they will be pushed off of their threaded nipple until the rubber gasket looses its seal, and the oil spills out. I have seen this in hydraulics and in engines.

Also, it should be remembered that most modern engines have a oil pump relief valve that sets the maximum pressure that will be obtained, regardless of the temperature of the oil. Although pressure could get too low due to high oil temperature, or low pump rpm, it ought not get too high, regardless of temperature. If you believe your climate precludes this, then certainly you will need a gear drive tractor, not a hydrostatic one, since those reliefs would be likewise effected.

Some oil pumps can have difficulty establishing their prime once lost. Many pumps will lose their prime over time. High viscosity oil in a pickup tube makes it even harder. Starting at a lower rpm certainly does not help this situation. In this case, you are dealing with a pump that is pumping air, not oil. Once the air is displaced, and some vacuum is formed, and the oil finally gets up to the pump, then it begins to function as the reliable fixed displacement pump we all rely on.

If if you want to talk about a diesel, you can say they burn diesel, and they have high compression, and they have high injection pressures to compensate. BUT: beyond these common things, you must then specify WHICH diesel. A VW that can turn nearly 6000 rpm, a Kubota that can turn 3200 rpm, or a big industrial that can turn 900 rpm? Each is different, and each has their own manual, which will tell you many things, including how to start it.

My BX has a fixed displacement lift pump that acts as a pilot pump for the hydrostatic unit as well. It ought to warm up a bit before it is put to work. If will warm up much faster at half throttle than at idle, since few if any of the reliefs are being challenged at idle. Anytime a hydraulic pressure drops with an actual flow of fluid and this happens while not shifting a heavy load, that power is going directly to heat. Even so, it still takes a while.
 

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