yeah, earlier this year i bought a miller 211 and i was going to get the 045 stuff for it too, but the more i thought about it, the less i decided i needed it. it's not too often i get past 1/2" material. generally 1/8" to 1/2" is what i use.
Stick or MIG on thick plate???
- Thread starter JCC
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yeah, earlier this year i bought a miller 211 and i was going to get the 045 stuff for it too, but the more i thought about it, the less i decided i needed it. it's not too often i get past 1/2" material. generally 1/8" to 1/2" is what i use.
KWentling
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That ESAB wire is what we use. Its a great wire. Too bad it won't fit your machine. I'm guessing that all manufacturers have an equivalent wire. I gather it doesn't come in the small rolls in .035 either? Lincoln's NR211 runs pretty good, but if you've ever run a dual shield wire, its hard to go back to that. The slag formed on dual shield just falls off with a tap. Sometimes will just curl off behind you on a long bead. NR211 will take some effort with a chipping hammer and a wire brush to clean up. I'd invest in a needle scaler if thats what you are going to use and you have an air compressor. I believe NR211 is a 60,000 tensile wire while the II 70 Ultra is 70,000. The II 70 also has really good cold weather properties. Neither of those would likely be issues for your backhoe project. The good thing about the NR211 is it will be cheaper and you don't need to buy gas.
Kim
Renze
Elite Member
At school, we had to learn to weld on 3mm plates with O/A torches. Just to get the feel, to control a melting bath. Then stick welding, then mig welding.
stick welding is the most easy way of welding, just set the amps right and drag the rod along slowly. If you know how to adjust a mig welder, wire feed, amps, stick welding is peanuts.
Dont waste your money on another toy: I used to have a 180A welder with my brother: It cost 700 euro, and 350 of repairs every 2 years. When it broke down, i got a loaner: It was a 250A semi commercial model: What a world of difference !! This really made welding fun !
Because i didnt want to risk to break my brothers welder again, when it was repaired i brought it straight away to my brothers backgarden shop in town, and ordered myself a new commercial 350A welder. It was 1400 euro new: I spent the same money on the hobby 180A welder, and two 350 euro repairs (once the main spool, the other time the rectifier) in 4 years time, because i only used the max setting, and it still came short on heavy steel.
For what i'm doing (mostly half inch as well) the difference between our old 180A hobby, and the 250A semi-commercial loaner, was a giant leap, where the difference between the 250A semi-commercial loaner, and the 350A commercial i bought, was just a big step.
My advice: Dont end up with TWO toys: save your money untill you can afford a 250A mig. Its worth it !
Just visit the attic of the welding company i worked: They have about a ton of unused welding rods from the old times... There is too much money in it to throw them away, but the hourly wages are too high nowadays to give workers a box of sticks and a slag hammer...
I do not see any advantage using 0.045 Dual Shield wire with a marginally power unit and all its complexities.
Looking through my Miller GMAW manual which exlapains Short Arc Transfer, Gobbler Transfer and Spray Arc Transfer and what takes to makes it happen, I would choose a 0.035, ER70S-6 or ER80-6 wire.
Short Arc Transfer with C-25 gas:
0.035, 50-180 amps, 16-22 arc volts.
0.045, 75-250 amps, 17-23 arc volts.
Spray Arc Transfer with Ar+1 to 5%O2, C-25 may also be used by adding another volt or two to the arc volts.
0.035, 165-300 amps, 24-30 arc volts.
0.045, 200-375 amps, 24-32 arc volts.
I would prep the joint with a signal or two sided V notch as needed, set the root gape at 0.035 using the wire as a gauge, a hot tack weld, run the root pass in Short Arc mode hot enough to get penetration without too much burn through if any. Setup for Spray Arc Transfer to fill the V notch, plenty of heat to tie in the sides of the notch. Compensate for distortion by welding side 1 than side 2. Take care for silicon slag islands [grind or chip our] cap the gap and call it a day.
Looking through my Miller GMAW manual which exlapains Short Arc Transfer, Gobbler Transfer and Spray Arc Transfer and what takes to makes it happen, I would choose a 0.035, ER70S-6 or ER80-6 wire.
Short Arc Transfer with C-25 gas:
0.035, 50-180 amps, 16-22 arc volts.
0.045, 75-250 amps, 17-23 arc volts.
Spray Arc Transfer with Ar+1 to 5%O2, C-25 may also be used by adding another volt or two to the arc volts.
0.035, 165-300 amps, 24-30 arc volts.
0.045, 200-375 amps, 24-32 arc volts.
I would prep the joint with a signal or two sided V notch as needed, set the root gape at 0.035 using the wire as a gauge, a hot tack weld, run the root pass in Short Arc mode hot enough to get penetration without too much burn through if any. Setup for Spray Arc Transfer to fill the V notch, plenty of heat to tie in the sides of the notch. Compensate for distortion by welding side 1 than side 2. Take care for silicon slag islands [grind or chip our] cap the gap and call it a day.
David Devuono
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Its also a big leap from a $700 machine to a $2500 Machine. I know this is a build your own site but I can tell you a backhoe is so much fun, I would buy the $700 welder and put the 1,800 you saved on the welder plus the $3,000 your gonna spend on the backhoe project and buy a 3pth backhoe and go digging next weekend instead of next summer 
Its also a big leap from a $700 machine to a $2500 Machine. I know this is a build your own site but I can tell you a backhoe is so much fun, I would buy the $700 welder and put the 1,800 you saved on the welder plus the $3,000 your gonna spend on the backhoe project and buy a 3pth backhoe and go digging next weekend instead of next summer
Yes, that is the route I would take, but some folk like to roll their own.
KWentling
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Can't argue with anything here. I kind of wondered if a 210 would have enough poop to run .045 good. He might be better off with .035. I believe it was Shield Arc that showed a picture of .045 vertical run with a 200 amp machine. Pretty good jump in deposit rate between .035 and .045. I normally run .045 ER706-6 on my 255 at home because I don't have smoke extraction and don't want to smoke up my shop walls and ceiling. 90% of what is run at work is II 70 Ultra. I prefer it over the hardwire, especially out of position, but maybe that is just me and my lack of experience running hard wire out of position. I usually have to run it downhill which doesn't have the penetration of uphill.
Kim
westcliffe01
Veteran Member
JCC, just for kicks a story from back in the 90's when I spent a few years working on oil platform modules and building a new refinery from scratch (along with 10000 others...).
Since the refinery was a government project, the operating "company" (also government people) decided that they could do as good as the suppliers and bid on some of the "easy" piping for the refinery. Typically it consisted of welding standard lengths of pipe together and then welding one standard pipe fitting (elbow or T) on each end. Given the standard welding position and working indoors, 90% of the welds were mig. They were easily recognizable due to the smooth consistency of the weld bead, since the process was essentially automated (fixed torch position and rotator for the pipe.
Bear in mind this was a Loyds insured project, so all welders had to be qualified and regularly re-tested and the welds inspected according to the duty and typically BS specifications. Generally, the welds are sampled and this switches over to 100% if issues are found with workmanship of a particular welder. The majority of the pipes were too thin for ultrasound inspection (need at least 3/4" wall) so radiography and magnetic particle were the rule, with visual inspection too.
So the government contractor delivers over 120 000 "spool pieces" (the prefabricated pipe sections) to the refinery site, along with a couple of container loads of quality documentation (no joke, it was like a library).
Other contractors, like Chicago Bridge and Iron (one of the best on site) take the pre-fabricated parts and assemble them on site in situ. Much harder work, done outside in the weather, the material is immobile, so uphand, downhand and overhead welding are all required, to the same exacting quality standards. So this is where I enter the picture. Having been an NDT technician and having studied engineering and being able to work with engineering drawings, I got a job as a coordinator who goes out, marks the welds to be inspected, sometimes arranges for scaffolding to be built to get to the joint to be tested, and then shows each NDT crew where there work is for the shift.
Well, it happens that in the pitch dark of night on a refinery site that consists more of rain filled excavations than visible structures that one of the radiographers (hung over perhaps) X rays the wrong welds. Good boy that he is, he marks the locations properly that he DID xray, so the next day when it is found that all the welds he radiographed had 100% lack of fusion, it didn't take long to figure out what happened. Instead of X raying the NEW field welds, he X rayed the MIG welds made by the government contractor, which had been sandblasted and painted before being shipped to the site. Seeing the paint in the location of the failed welds and then seeing the characteristic smooth weld beads one has the instant AHA moment. Mig welds + wrong prep or parameters = LACK of FUSION. No matter how pretty the welds, most of them were junk.
To cut a long story short, fixing the mig weld problem took about 20 full time bodies working lots of overtime nearly 2 years. The final repair rate on the mig welds was over 60%.
So my advice is: always guard against too little heat input. Preheat the joint well with a "rosebud" or OA torch. If using true mig (not flux core), everything has to be scrupulously clean. With stick welding, the flux does more than just provide shielding against oxygen. If stick welding, always de-humidify the rods in your wifes oven, or get your own toaster oven.
Bottom line, always consider the consequences of failure of the joint and act appropriately. While mig can be used for larger thickness joints, the configurations is always "qualified" before actually being used, just like what is done for stick or any other process. Just be aware that the tendency for "cold welds" is always there when doing mig welding.
Since the refinery was a government project, the operating "company" (also government people) decided that they could do as good as the suppliers and bid on some of the "easy" piping for the refinery. Typically it consisted of welding standard lengths of pipe together and then welding one standard pipe fitting (elbow or T) on each end. Given the standard welding position and working indoors, 90% of the welds were mig. They were easily recognizable due to the smooth consistency of the weld bead, since the process was essentially automated (fixed torch position and rotator for the pipe.
Bear in mind this was a Loyds insured project, so all welders had to be qualified and regularly re-tested and the welds inspected according to the duty and typically BS specifications. Generally, the welds are sampled and this switches over to 100% if issues are found with workmanship of a particular welder. The majority of the pipes were too thin for ultrasound inspection (need at least 3/4" wall) so radiography and magnetic particle were the rule, with visual inspection too.
So the government contractor delivers over 120 000 "spool pieces" (the prefabricated pipe sections) to the refinery site, along with a couple of container loads of quality documentation (no joke, it was like a library).
Other contractors, like Chicago Bridge and Iron (one of the best on site) take the pre-fabricated parts and assemble them on site in situ. Much harder work, done outside in the weather, the material is immobile, so uphand, downhand and overhead welding are all required, to the same exacting quality standards. So this is where I enter the picture. Having been an NDT technician and having studied engineering and being able to work with engineering drawings, I got a job as a coordinator who goes out, marks the welds to be inspected, sometimes arranges for scaffolding to be built to get to the joint to be tested, and then shows each NDT crew where there work is for the shift.
Well, it happens that in the pitch dark of night on a refinery site that consists more of rain filled excavations than visible structures that one of the radiographers (hung over perhaps) X rays the wrong welds. Good boy that he is, he marks the locations properly that he DID xray, so the next day when it is found that all the welds he radiographed had 100% lack of fusion, it didn't take long to figure out what happened. Instead of X raying the NEW field welds, he X rayed the MIG welds made by the government contractor, which had been sandblasted and painted before being shipped to the site. Seeing the paint in the location of the failed welds and then seeing the characteristic smooth weld beads one has the instant AHA moment. Mig welds + wrong prep or parameters = LACK of FUSION. No matter how pretty the welds, most of them were junk.
To cut a long story short, fixing the mig weld problem took about 20 full time bodies working lots of overtime nearly 2 years. The final repair rate on the mig welds was over 60%.
So my advice is: always guard against too little heat input. Preheat the joint well with a "rosebud" or OA torch. If using true mig (not flux core), everything has to be scrupulously clean. With stick welding, the flux does more than just provide shielding against oxygen. If stick welding, always de-humidify the rods in your wifes oven, or get your own toaster oven.
Bottom line, always consider the consequences of failure of the joint and act appropriately. While mig can be used for larger thickness joints, the configurations is always "qualified" before actually being used, just like what is done for stick or any other process. Just be aware that the tendency for "cold welds" is always there when doing mig welding.
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Its also a big leap from a $700 machine to a $2500 Machine. I know this is a build your own site but I can tell you a backhoe is so much fun, I would buy the $700 welder and put the 1,800 you saved on the welder plus the $3,000 your gonna spend on the backhoe project and buy a 3pth backhoe and go digging next weekend instead of next summer
Buying a backhoe was one of my options, but one of the main attractions for me to build one myself is the enjoyment of the project and being able to design exactly what I want.
Also buying a good 3pt backhoe would set me back $6-$7K and I do not like 3pt but prefer a subframe mount which would be even more. I figure DIY will cost me about $2500 not including the welder (which will be used for a long time to come) and not counting my hourly rate (but that is another thread).
I do not mind the time it will take, that is why I decided to get a better MIG not a stick welder even though it will take probably 5 times longer to complete the couple dozen welds on 1/2" plate. Since the vast majority of my other projects will be just fine with the Handler 210 it makes more sense for me.
If I was just interested in convenience I would just hire the backhoe work done.
