Stock market up due to "plunging" oil price

[Travelover]

lol, ok, let me rephrase a question....

Is it better to buy funds that are historically proven to lag their benchmark or is it better to look into funds that historically (over same time period) have beaten the same benchmark?

Richard, you can't predict the future based on past results. All managed funds regress to the mean, even the greats like Peter Lynch's Magellan Fund.

Or, to put another way.... are you suggesting there there are NO funds that have performed better than the given benchmarks?

I'm suggesting that you don't have a way to know which funds these will be in advance. Looking back anyone can site examples.

If you are suggesting that there are no funds that have done better than the given benchmarks, I'd find that interesting.

So, if you in fact agree that there are or might be some funds that have indeed beaten the same benchmarks then why would you pursue (evidently as a primary goal) those who do not?

Because I'd rather get very close to the index in returns than pay higher expenses to a manager that statistically probably gets less return than the index.

I don't blame you for drinking the kool aid - you need to believe it to sell this to your clients.

But seriously, why do you think Warren Buffet recommends index funds, as well? Do you know something he doesn't?

 

[Richard]

But seriously, why do you think Warren Buffet recommends index funds, as well? Do you know something he doesn't?

I didn't realize he made his billions by investing in index funds! I always thought he put a bit more thought into his investments.

Clearly you're a do it yourselfer and you're happy with what you're doing and that's great!

I'm not here to defend nor offend. I do take a bit if issue with your "coolaid" comment as you don't know anything about what I actually do for people nor what those results are. To suggest I'm drinking the coolaid is to me, suggesting that I'm being less than honest and trying to misrepresent things to people. That's something that I've never EVER done and take great pride about.

I'd suggest to you that someone doesn't last 22 years in this business without having the clients interests at heart and doing what I'd call "clean business".

I've cleaned up the mess that some "do it yourselfers" have caused themselves and I've admired the results of other do it yourselfers.

I hope & trust you're the latter!!

Although that's the end of my comments, I had a thought go through my head... at one point, the market had pulled back something like what... lets use 20% as a round number, fair?

I'd bet lunch that if the market was down 20% and I told you my discretionary accounts were down only 10% that you might believe that. I'd bet if I told you my discretionary accounts were "flat" (not up nor down) while the market was down 20% that you might not belive it... and I do NOT think you'd believe me if I told you those same accounts were UP 20% during that same time frame (in this case, defined as essentially Sept 30, 2007 to June 30, 2008

You know something interesting.... NONE of the above is accurate and you wouldn't believe me anyways so there's not much sense in me really trying to say too much and what is really the truth.

I do not get too active talking investments on forums (any forum) because in my view, for ME to do it accurately (explaining points of view, explaining the concept sometimes, pointing out disclaimers.....) it requires a freaking book.

Also, I (or anyone) would be a nutcase to talk about specific funds (without proper disclosures & prospectus...) because in today's day & age, there's no assurances that someone might not read something here and then accuse me of advising them.


Happy tractoring

 

[Travelover]

I didn't realize he made his billions by investing in index funds! I always thought he put a bit more thought into his investments.

I didn't say he did and neither did the article I referenced. Why are you dodging the question of why Buffet recommends low cost index funds?

Clearly you're a do it yourselfer and you're happy with what you're doing and that's great!

I'm not here to defend nor offend. I do take a bit if issue with your "coolaid" comment as you don't know anything about what I actually do for people nor what those results are. To suggest I'm drinking the coolaid is to me, suggesting that I'm being less than honest and trying to misrepresent things to people. That's something that I've never EVER done and take great pride about.

You took it upon yourself to attack the low cost index fund approach, when as a financial adviser you clearly have a conflict of interest in that recommendation. This is a tractor forum, not a place to sniff out clients.

I'd suggest to you that someone doesn't last 22 years in this business without having the clients interests at heart and doing what I'd call "clean business".

I hope so, because I'm seen enough shady business from so called financial advisers to last a lifetime with front end loads, back end loads, purchase fees, maintenance fees, churning, shameful annuity surrender fees buried in a 50 page prospectus ...........

I've cleaned up the mess that some "do it yourselfers" have caused themselves and I've admired the results of other do it yourselfers.

I hope & trust you're the latter!!

Although that's the end of my comments, I had a thought go through my head... at one point, the market had pulled back something like what... lets use 20% as a round number, fair?

Thanks for giving me the last word.

I'd bet lunch that if the market was down 20% and I told you my discretionary accounts were down only 10% that you might believe that. I'd bet if I told you my discretionary accounts were "flat" (not up nor down) while the market was down 20% that you might not belive it... and I do NOT think you'd believe me if I told you those same accounts were UP 20% during that same time frame (in this case, defined as essentially Sept 30, 2007 to June 30, 2008

You know something interesting.... NONE of the above is accurate and you wouldn't believe me anyways so there's not much sense in me really trying to say too much and what is really the truth.

I do not get too active talking investments on forums (any forum) because in my view, for ME to do it accurately (explaining points of view, explaining the concept sometimes, pointing out disclaimers.....) it requires a freaking book.

Also, I (or anyone) would be a nutcase to talk about specific funds (without proper disclosures & prospectus...) because in today's day & age, there's no assurances that someone might not read something here and then accuse me of advising them.


Happy tractoring

I invest looking at a 10 to 20 year time horizon. Anyone can cherry pick a time frame to ballyhoo their performance.

For anyone reading this thread and looking for some good, sound investment advice, I've been pleased with the forum below.

Bogleheads Investing Advice and Info

 

[Richard]

You took it upon yourself to attack the low cost index fund approach, when as a financial adviser you clearly have a conflict of interest in that recommendation. This is a tractor forum, not a place to sniff out clients.

Seems someone clearly has some kind of axe to grind?

"attack" the approach? A quick reading above shows I said

"I'm not arguing so please don't take this that way. If it works for you then that's all that matters.

With that said, most (I'd dare guess 'all' but won't say that) index funds by definition will NOT be able to 'beat' the market or what ever its benchmark index is, because the fund has expenses and the index does not."

That sure is a vicious attack. I'm glad you weren't harmed . I'd actually suggest it's a matter of factual statement than anything else. Furthermore, (as someone who has access to sell same funds, so there is HARDLY a conflict, but (like Connie Chung) I'll keep that fact between just you & me )

As for "This is a tractor forum, not a place to sniff out clients"

please show me one place where (since this forum was BEGUN I might add) I've tried to 'sniff out clients'

If you are going to cite my comment (called disclosure) about being an advisor as me sniffing, then I'm just dam-ned either way I go aren't I? I said something once (years and years ago) on a forum and got chided because I did NOT let it be known from which angle I was approaching the conversation.

If (and notice I'm using the word if) that IS your basis, then I'd suggest that there are those who might appreciate a comment from someone who's got 22 years experience of doing this on a day to day basis and has seen ALL kinds of train wrecks that (some) 'wreck it yourselfers' cause.

I guess I'm just going to have to agree that we disagree since you seem heck bent on proving something or another...

Let your agenda go.... you'll feel better, trust me (and I won't charge you for that advice either )

 

[Travelover]

..........
Although that's the end of my comments.......

And that is the end of my comments, too, LOL.

 

[unreconstructed]

As Sherman approached Atlanta, my Mom's gggrandparents buried what little valuables they had left. I don't know if they got them back or not but the family was impoverished anyhow.

I think a big bad Sherman is on the way.

 

[orangebluegreen]

I
I hope so, because I'm seen enough shady business from so called financial advisers to last a lifetime with front end loads, back end loads, purchase fees, maintenance fees, churning, shameful annuity surrender fees buried in a 50 page prospectus ...........

Same here, I saw it first hand when interviewing as a stockbroker in 1988, I was half way through studying for the Series7 when the '87 crash happened. The agenda for hiring as a broker was pretty much if you were a former used car salesman, a hot babe, or had an Ivy League or Blue Blood pedigree, or were of a particular religious/ethnic background, well.... you're our guy. Investment knowledge or successes has nothing to do with it, they are salesmen...period.

I wonder how many in annuities don't realize if they annuitize the money will not pass on to heirs and if they roll over into something else the surrender fees will drop kick them into CD rate of return basically. The worst part is the salesman makes an accelerated commission on the sale of this type of product, up to 20% first year. If that has changed I don't know, don't study that any longer, but doubt anything has changed. If one gets into annuities and then finds out they are getting screwed (which is true IMO) and then wants to move out, that accelerated commission is gone.

Btw..not suggesting in any way Richard is not competent, I know nothing of him and I too agree with not making too many comments about stocks because if something changes and a post is left behind someone might read something that is out of date and the situation now differs, but it is scary there are still people that will give discretionary accounts. I have seen first hand many FORMER multimillionaires thanks to discretionary accounts. I don't have the quote in from of me and going from memory without digging up the book, but I always liked the line about the broker walking along the docks looking at the yachts and when asked who owned them the broker replied mostly wealthy stockbrokers. The broker was then asked which of the yachts are owned by the clients.

The end.

 

[Travelover]

This is a classic:

Amazon.com: Where Are the Customers' Yachts? or A Good Hard Look at Wall Street (A Marketplace Book): Fred Schwed: Books

Another good read:

http://www.amazon.com/Random-Walk-Down-Wall-Street/dp/0393959619/ref=sid_dp_dp

 

[js5020]

Wow,,, I had to check to see this was TBN and not ET!

 

[Skerby]

Firstly, i think this is a site for tractor forums and since you already started this conversation while waiting for oilbynet.com to be instantiated i feel less guilty to post opinion.

todays headline,
Oil rises to $119 on Russia-U.S. tension
what a joke and how powerless we consumers are without a massive organization. who on this board believes this will escalate to anything to justify the wizkid hedge fund engineers from buying into this and distortingly driving prices around like a f'in rag doll?
no one's foreign policy since kennedy in my opinion cared to entertain tangling with a full or fragmented soviet union. with the us spread thin and enough success in democratizing the eastern blocks there is NOTHING to gain in a military escalation.. this will stay in the retorical and economic venue for a timely, successful, resolution...

hedge funds need regulation and the finance/economic/and liberal arts wizbangs need to study world politics before entering en masse into intl finance and and exercising restraint in their sophmoric speculations...

do these guys just have long positions they think they can sell to us to get out of? geezzz....