Stopping weeds in the "garden" -- Preen?

[lakngulf]

Thanks to all for such a civil discussion. Yes, opinions vary, and so do cirumstances. I for one appreciate the straight forward discussion, and the admission of an over step here or there. Rare these days, quite rare indeed.

 

[clemsonfor]

I have had p[retty good luck using the middle of the road black weed fabric. Laying it down the cutting slits over the holes like mentioned. This year i bought a round hay bale and laid the hay out to block the sun between the rows, this has worked to date with 99% effectiveness. I started my garden sometime in may, and could not get hay for a week or two and actually put it over the crabgrass and bermuda and it shaded it out and killed it.

-Nate

 

[MMagis]

I have had p[retty good luck using the middle of the road black weed fabric. Laying it down the cutting slits over the holes like mentioned. This year i bought a round hay bale and laid the hay out to block the sun between the rows, this has worked to date with 99% effectiveness. I started my garden sometime in may, and could not get hay for a week or two and actually put it over the crabgrass and bermuda and it shaded it out and killed it.

-Nate

I hate to be the one to mention it , but you may regret that hay bale next year. They're FULL of seeds.

What do you use to hold the fabric down along the edges? I used dirt, but that dirt just grew weeds. I also have weeds (thistles) growing under the fabric and pushing it up. I know they'll die eventually, but it's aggravating.

 

[lakngulf]

I have had p[retty good luck using the middle of the road black weed fabric. Laying it down the cutting slits over the holes like mentioned. This year i bought a round hay bale and laid the hay out to block the sun between the rows, this has worked to date with 99% effectiveness. -Nate

Good looking garden there clemson' Those beans look ready to pick. What are the ?white? gourd like items?

I certainly may try your hay idea this year.

 

[MarkV]

Well is seems like a universal problem, VEGGI GARDEN WEEDS. I am an amateur and don't grow anywhere near the amount that BP or others do here. So a couple of questions.

BP, what does the organic community do to supplement the soil without adding outside seeds each year? I assume you also don't add fertilizer or lime to be organic certified. I live in an area with terrible soil, Ga. red clay, and have actively tried for the past five years to add good stuff whenever I could get it. Of course that brought a new crop of seed each year. I do till year round when the garden is free.

MMagis, and those that use herbicides. What about pre-emergences? I was always afraid of how they would affect the vegetables. Are you saying that will work to eliminate grass type vegetation and not harm vegetables? I did use a weed blocking cloth on my tomatoes this year and it has worked well so far. They have always been a pain to weed through the cages. We have a friend that grows ornamental flowers for wedding and such plus some vegetables. She grows on 2 acres and uses a weed cloth on all of it. She is a legit business and finds the cloth cheaper than keeping a crew to weed full time.

How many use herbicides on there garden? I have used some round-up on a limited basis.

MarkV

 

[MMagis]

I should clarify, I don’t have any experience with pre-emergent herbicides. I know there are some things available that would probably work, but I don’t know much about how they work. For the most part, I hand pull and use the tiller. The fabric is a new addition this year for me. It’s helping, but not as much as I would have liked. I have used gly in my small corn garden, but that’s about the only herbicide I’ve used in the gardens.

 

[bp fick]

Well is seems like a universal problem, VEGGI GARDEN WEEDS. I am an amateur and don't grow anywhere near the amount that BP or others do here. So a couple of questions.

BP, what does the organic community do to supplement the soil without adding outside seeds each year? I assume you also don't add fertilizer or lime to be organic certified. I live in an area with terrible soil, Ga. red clay, and have actively tried for the past five years to add good stuff whenever I could get it. Of course that brought a new crop of seed each year. I do till year round when the garden is free.


MarkV

Mark,

Sometimes, I am too passionate about this.
I studied, in reading and in field interview and observation work for two or three years before beginning my organic venture. I grew up on a "truck farm" in the 50s and 60s. Massive undertaking. But given the age period, it was a free-for-all chemically. I continued to garden until moving onto our property last year, when I desired to go full blown again, but full organic. Step by step. It doesn't happen over night. Lots of stuff I used to know, I must now re-learn, because this is different. There is both a financial and a passion interest for me in these matters. Just adding leaves, grass clippings etc, without hot, hot, hot composting is a recipe for weed introduction. I did this last year and have paid for my mistake. One's compost pile material is made using local resources to the person. I have leaves, pine needles, wood chips and most importantly, chicken manure at my disposal. That's about all I have, and I have to make it work, as does every gardener. No two situations are the same.

Bottom line? There isn't a quick and simple formula. It is a complex mix of variables that is large part science and good part art. I find it most challenging and most rewarding in every way, financially, mentally and physically. I am genuinely concerned about Genetically Altered seeds for virtually the sole purpose of being able to use Round Up type chemicals from Monsanto and others. I find that very disconcerting. Another topic, another day. I prefer the term "sustainable" to organic, as it better describes the goals in my mind.



Twelve Steps Toward Ecological Weed Management in Organic Vegetables - eXtension

This is another article on weed control management without resorting to just grabbing the chemicals, which over the long haul, will defeat your gardening by eventually, over time, destroying your sustainability. Pesticides are worse because they kill everything. If it kills bad bugs, it harms good ones too and enough of it, over time, is likely to harm us as well.

Lime is a natural product and perfectly acceptable and used with great gusto by organic farmers. I couldn't function without it. I'm small potatoes compared the big boys in Iowa, Kentucky and other places.

 

[bp fick]

This article from Iowa State University on sustainable Ag is perhaps the most practical and most straight forward.

Weed management for Organic Farmers

 

[MarkV]

Thanks BP, I enjoyed the link you provided. Wish I had access to chicken manure. We have a lot of chicken houses here in N. Georgia but the hay farmers are standing in line for the stuff. I haven't been able to find a good source. Collecting yard clippings, leaves and pine straw (I have a lot) just becomes an overwhelming task to create enough compost for my 50' x 50' garden. Hard for me to imagine how you do it for 8 acres. Maybe I am just too old. I like the term "sustainable", that is what I would like.

MMargis, I may have understood. I thought you were using a pre-emergent. My bad. I would like to know if anyone does that though. Personally I would like to stay natural but just can't handle what it takes with all that is on my plate. I like to shoot for BP term "sustainable garden" if there is an easier way.

MarkV

 

[clemsonfor]

I hate to be the one to mention it , but you may regret that hay bale next year. They're FULL of seeds.

What do you use to hold the fabric down along the edges? I used dirt, but that dirt just grew weeds. I also have weeds (thistles) growing under the fabric and pushing it up. I know they'll die eventually, but it's aggravating.

Ok so i will have weeds next year, heck i had weeds before i laid the hay. This is the first time a garden was planted here. I tilled green grass under two weeks or so before planting. About 5-7 days before planting i sprayed some of the sprouts with glyphosate (cant get them all). then planted. Grass next year, no problem the fresh hay will stop them, i will till this used hay under once or twice after the season.

My point is that i will have grass next year without the hay, i would have had grass this year without the hay as well.

If tilling in dosent look like its working i will just rake it into a pile and burn it the gardens not that big.

The fabric is held down with those purchased metal stakes, i plan on pulling it up and reusing it next year. About half of it is reused from last year and it sat out all winter. I plan on pulling it up though at the end of the season this year though.

The gourd looking things are butternut squash.

The far right half of the garden is overrun with vines, but they are pumpkins watermellon cateloups and the butternut squash.

 

[clemsonfor]

Good looking garden there clemson' Those beans look ready to pick. What are the ?white? gourd like items?

I certainly may try your hay idea this year.

Yep i was picking them at the time i was taking pics, that greenish thing to the left of center in the middle of the hay is a pile of beans i had picked and laid down. This was 2 nights ago, i picked a shirt tail full then and a half shirttail full last night.

To whoever mentions red clay in here in the piedmont of SC im growing in clay. I could not plant my garden for a few days because of the rain and if i walked in the garden my shoes would have had 3 inches of mud on the bottoms. I located 20 mins from lincolnton GA for those of your gorgians, which is about 1hr45 mins east of Athens.

 

[Chuck52]

Clemsonfor,

Do you have to deal with raccoons? I gave up on cantaloupe and corn because I wouldn't get any unless I sat up all night to keep the 'coons off. I trapped 30 'coons the last two years and didn't make a dent. My current garden spot will be 'coon proof, I hope, when I finish it. I'm putting up 2x4 welded wire and will run an electric wire at the top of that. I'll ground the fence and if the @#$%^ coons want in they will pay in pain!

They'll still get my peaches I guess. I didn't plan my orchard well enough to make it coon proof without more trouble than I'm willing to go to. Last year off four trees, we got to taste a couple of Belle of Georgias. All the Red Havens were ruined or just gone.

Chuck

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Bulletin from Ohio State University (THE Ohio State University) states that good management and tilling practices are essential for weed control.
Weed Control Principles: Cultural And Mechanical(Nonchemical) Weed Control

And they are always right!!! Go Bucks!!! :laughing:

Get the weeds early when they are barely breaking thru the soil, and you've licked the biggest part of the work. Wait a couple weeks, a lot more work. Wait a couple more weeks, the weeds have won.

 

[vsumoski]

Mark,
Sometimes, I am too passionate about this.

I don't believe you CAN be too passionate about this IMHO because 'this' is your health, and without health you have nothing.
My older brother used to 'hand me down' his Organic Gardening magazines back when J.I. Rodale was still publisher. I later purchased a book from them by Ruth Stout called "The no work garden book" which essentially advocated a six (6) inch mulch year round. The book may still be available, I'm not sure; I've had good results using it in my raised beds.
The trick with organic gardening IMO is that you don't try to fertilize the plants, but instead concentrate on FEEDING THE SOIL. If you use chemicals you upset the soil's natural balance, kill off good as well as bad organisms. Any 'minerals' you add are organic and natural by definition; compost is the best soil conditioner and food for your soil. Using cover crops, then turning them under as manure crops is very beneficial. Alfalfa roots go down twelve feet (12!) and bring minerals to the surface, fracture the ground, leave air passages and ready made tunnels for earth worms. Earth worm crap (casings) are what I believe is the major component of 'top soil.' Ruth's method has resulted in hundreds of worms and crumbly dark soil under the mulch. Great on a few 4'x12' raised beds, tough on 4 acres though.
Leaf mulch carries few seeds, use it to hold cardboard and newspapers down, keep adding to it and after a while it builds up and weeds are no problem, those that 'fly in' never establish strong roots and are easily kept under control i.e. perhaps 10 per bed per week which need to be pulled.
My plans are to use plastic mulch next year for my row crops with a cover crop between rows. I'm looking at a Rain Flow mulch layer attachment for my soon to be delivered CUT.
I'm passionate as well; besides finding Ruth's book, another advertisement in OG prompted me to subscribe to Jerome Belanger's Countryside and Small Stock Journal. I've done so since the 1960's. Originally without advertisements, it's still mostly written by the subscribers. There is always room to raise chickens (or rabbits if zoning disallows). As a card carrying Constitutional Party member, I love reading the insights of those souls who live beyond the sidewalks, forgo TV and strive for self sufficiency.
My above opinions are pretty much a result of all these years of reading, essentially the same way as reading TBN for the past year helped me to decide which tractor to purchase to replace my Deere 1020. If it's true that two heads are better than one, then scores of heads will surely help us make better decisions in life.

Vince

 

[bp fick]

Going to be a busy day, as I have to snag a dozen point of lay pullets and take them to a buyer, but just wanted to "tag" this thread with a quick word about corn gluten. This can be purchased either branded as Preen (yes, Preen can be purchased in a non-toxic variety) or just purchased at an elevator or feed store as corn gluten.

It works by introducing protein at such a high level that germination is prevented. Obviously, just like its chemical cousin, you cannot use such a product if you wish to germinate vegetables from seed, but once your germination is complete, go for it. Around set plant or plants already emerged you are good to go. The lag time is substantial. To be effective, the protein needs to be in the soil before weeds begin their attempt at world domination.

An added bonus is that corn gluten, when decomposed, adds a great level of Nitrogen, so think of it as slow release weed 'n feed.

Have great day everybody.

 

[Duffster]

Going to be a busy day, as I have to snag a dozen point of lay pullets and take them to a buyer, but just wanted to "tag" this thread with a quick word about corn gluten. This can be purchased either branded as Preen (yes, Preen can be purchased in a non-toxic variety) or just purchased at an elevator or feed store as corn gluten.

It works by introducing protein at such a high level that germination is prevented. Obviously, just like its chemical cousin, you cannot use such a product if you wish to germinate vegetables from seed, but once your germination is complete, go for it. Around set plant or plants already emerged you are good to go. The lag time is substantial. To be effective, the protein needs to be in the soil before weeds begin their attempt at world domination.

An added bonus is that corn gluten, when decomposed, adds a great level of Nitrogen, so think of it as slow release weed 'n feed.

Have great day everybody.

It's funny you mention this since I have been doing alot of reading on the subject. I am wondering if soybean meal would accomplish the same thing and it would be more readily available.

How does stuff like this fit in your organic program? The CGM and SBM available at the local mill is most likely not organic.

 

[bp fick]

It's funny you mention this since I have been doing alot of reading on the subject. I am wondering if soybean meal would accomplish the same thing and it would be more readily available.

How does stuff like this fit in your organic program? The CGM and SBM available at the local mill is most likely not organic.

I do not know. I have not used it, although I am aware of it's great potential. For most users, who aren't ever going to get "certified", it wouldn't matter much to them. If it works and is a clean, natural product, albeit not technically an approved organic to a licensing group, it just wouldn't matter. Given the choice, I know which Preen I would choose. BTW, I will look into gluten that is approved. Surely, it must exist.