Subcompact Forum

[KNotMe]

With many models of subcompacts available, is it possible to have a forum dedicated to these models, so that owners can share experiences without getting into color wars?

 

[Inspector507]

The different brands are not really split in the CUT, SUB-CUT, so I wonder if it would make much sense.........?
Just a thought

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Personally I think it might be interesting, but it does seem like the Sub-CUTS might have to be listed or defined.

Most people, even the JD folks consider the 2210 a Sub-CUT but do not consider the X5xx series Sub-CUTS, they consider them garden tractors. But the X series and the 2210s are basically the same price and similar in size. As for other brands, the Massey GC series, the NH TZ series, and the Kubota BX series tractors.

If the list could be defined, and perhaps refined over time as new entrants to the Sub-CUT class are introduced, it would be nice to have a level and balanced discussion about these tractors. I noticed someone on the Kubota forum posted a question about the comparison between the Massey and the Kubota and things got close to being ugly.

 

[Inspector507]

Things tend to get ugly here more often nowadays, for some reason Bob.

 

[KNotMe]

I think we can use the specifications of the BX as what defines a subcut. With reference to the JD tractors, we can also compare the 4010 and the 2210 and get another instance where there can be some confusion.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

I think another tractor that is often confused with the Sub-CUTs is the Kioti CK20, but that seems to measure more closely to the TC18 or TC24 or the Kubota B7500.

 

[MikePA]

Everyone can agree on what brand a tractor is. Defining what a sub CUT is would not only create disagreements and subsequent arguments, it would be confusing to new users. Do I post in one of the Kubota forums if I own a BX2200 or in the subcompact forum? Plus, I am hard pressed to identify what experiences would be unique to sub CUTs that would not also benefit other TBNers regardless of the size of their tractor.

 

[KNotMe]

We all know what a subcut is. That is a machine with a small frame that duplicates ALL the capabilities of a CUT. Note that I stated ALL. They will do what their bigger brothers will do but more slowly up to a point at least.

For now, in the US market there are 4 manufacturers with machines that fit the bill

Kubota
John Deere
Massey Ferguson
New Holland


The key requirements are

1. A small frame
2. The presence of a ROPS
3. A mehanical rear PTO and possibly mid PTO
4. Availability of 4 wheel drive
5. 3 point hitch (cat 1 or limited cat 1)

We can further define what a small frame is by height and width.

Using the above criteria, neither the JD X series, nor the Simplicity qualifies for the lack of a ROPS in one and the absence of a cat 1 (limited or not) in the other.

Finally, it is in deference to the CUTs that these machines are called subcuts, because in terms of use, some will better a few of the CUTs at the lower end of the CUT totem pole. For instance, the 2210 compares more than favorably with the 4010, and the BX 2230 compares quite well with the 7510.

 

[MikePA]

<font color="blue"> We all know what a subcut is. </font>
We'll have to agree to disagree. The statistics you listed are your definition of a SCUT. That's the easy part. Getting people to agree to it is the hard part. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

<font color="blue">MikePA said: I am hard pressed to identify what experiences would be unique to sub CUTs that would not also benefit other TBNers regardless of the size of their tractor. </font>
Assuming we can all agree on a definition, what are some examples that answer my aforementioned question?

 

[Bob_Skurka]

KNotMe . . . I think I would also factor GROUND CLEARANCE into the Sub-CUT qualities. A BX series tractor might have 6 inches of ground clearance while a Kioti CK20 is about 12" of clearance according to their specs. Most of the small frame CUTs have roughly DOUBLE the ground clearance as a Sub-CUT.


MikePA . . . while I generally agree with your statements, I would ask the same questions you ask about CUTS. I find it interesting that the people on this board who own New Holland tractors often post their customizations in the GENERAL CUSTOMIZATION forum, while the Kubota owners generally post their handiwork in the KUBOTA OWNING/OPERATING forum. Yet to me, a custom light set up, or a custom bucket upgrade, or whatever, on any brand of tractor is applicable to EVERY brand of tractor. I think the whole thing gets a little muddy.

 

[AndyM]

<font color="blue"> MikePA . . . while I generally agree with your statements, I would ask the same questions you ask about CUTS. I find it interesting that the people on this board who own New Holland tractors often post their customizations in the GENERAL CUSTOMIZATION forum, while the Kubota owners generally post their handiwork in the KUBOTA OWNING/OPERATING forum. Yet to me, a custom light set up, or a custom bucket upgrade, or whatever, on any brand of tractor is applicable to EVERY brand of tractor. I think the whole thing gets a little muddy. </font>

I have to agree with Bob there. We discussed that a while back as a reason why the New Holland forum has less posts. I regularly read the Kubota forum, because there are interesting tips and modifications that could easily apply to all CUT users. New Holland users tend to post their operating and modifying experiences under general Owning/Operating, Customization, or Projects, while many Kubota users tend to post these things under the Kubota forums.
/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[MikePA]

<font color="blue"> Yet to me, a custom light set up, or a custom bucket upgrade, or whatever, on any brand of tractor is applicable to EVERY brand of tractor. </font>
I agree. Before I post I always ask myself "Is this information or question unique to a particular brand?". If it's not, I put it in the General Forums since it will receive a wider audience for informing in the case of sharing an experience or getting an answer in the case of a question. If it is brand specific, I further ask if it relate to 'Buying' or 'Owning/Operating' and chose the right 'sub-forum'.

<font color="blue"> I think the whole thing gets a little muddy. </font>
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Well it sounds like we all agree. I'm not sure what we agree on, but we seem to agree on something! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[JayC]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Well it sounds like we all agree. I'm not sure what we agree on, but we seem to agree on something! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif )</font>

lol! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I agree with you that the CK20 is quite often mistaken for a Sub-CUT. I don't know why, but it seems it is the only machine confused for a Sub-CUT. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I sure hope the CK25 & 30's aren't cunfused with a small-chassis machine, or moreover, a Sub-CUT! lol /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Muhammad]

We've thought about a subcompact forum... I guess we'll keep thinking about it since we're not planning one right now. But, the feedback is welcome.

 

[BotaGuy]

The reason the Kioti is often confused with the Sub-Cuts...is because of the price point. The price of a CK-20 is the same...maybe less than the Kubota, Deere, and now NH sub-cuts. Naturally when there is a lower priced alternative, it will be grouped with like priced machines....the other key that has caused tremendous interest in the Kioti is the Hydro tranny.

You can bet that if the Chinese Jinma tractors come out with a 25HP Hydro for $8500 with loader....the interest in these would cause a huge stir as well.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

BotaGuy. . . I think that many of the people who confuse the CK20 with Sub-CUTs are owners of the CK20. In fact, there is a thread somewhere on TBN where an owern of a CK20 laments the fact that JD doesn't compare the CK20 to their 2210. My thought is OF COURSE THEY DON'T THEY ARE DIFFERENT CLASSES OF TRACTORS, the specs will tell you they are different machines. The CK20 is small, but it is not really any smaller than a NH TC18 and people place that unit into the CUT grouping. Price may be part of the reason the CK20 is confused with Sub-CUTs but I suspect it is more than that?

 

[shoppintractors]

Bob,
<font color="blue">In fact, there is a thread somewhere on TBN where an owern of a CK20 laments the fact that JD doesn't compare the CK20 to their 2210.</font>

I think this may be the opening question from the thread you are referring to......
<font color="blue">I couldn't help but notice at the Kubota website they have a comparison chart for the BX1830 and they show the John Deere and the Iseki Massey as the only comparisons. Kioti, in particular the CK20, is strangely absent. </font> by: dpl96

I'm not aware that dpl96 owns a CK20.

I believe people get caught up in the horsepower game. Similar horsepower should be in the same class? Not in my book. CUT's, such as the the TC21, B7500, CK20 have more powerful hydraulics, greater 3 point hitch capacities, full 3 point hitch verses limited three point hitch, and since many are sold with FEL's....stronger FEL's capacities, some have position control, all have larger tires and higher ground clearance.

KNotMe writes (just up this thread a bit):
<font color="blue"> .....and the BX 2230 compares quite well with the 7510. </font>
I see clear difference between these two based on my remarks above.

Don

 

[BotaGuy]

I think the line between the CUT's and the Sub-Cuts is really tire size, and ground clearance. Having actually owned both the B7500 and now a BX series machine the capabilites are very similar, this type of info you can't get by looking at brochures and comparing stats. There are compromises with all machines...a little more lift here, a little better 3-point there, a better dealer network here, a poor dealer there, etc.
I would welcome the Sub-Cut forum...for all brands.

 

[shoppintractors]

<font color="blue"> Having actually owned both the B7500....... </font>
Was your B7500 outfitted with a Front End Loader?

Don