Sudden clunking/blue smoke diagnosis

   / Sudden clunking/blue smoke diagnosis #11  
I have 357 hours on my 2007 Kioti CK20HST with a FEL & BH. I had a similar problem about a week ago. I was moving some dirt with the FEL and started to notice a few puffs of blue smoke. Within 2 minutes it was a constant stream of blue smoke from the exhaust along with the engine running rough like it was missing on 1 cylinder.

I loaded the tractor on the trailer to take it back to the dealer the next day. Come to find out the warranty ran out less than a month ago. They changed the fuel pump (didn't fix it). After a few minutes of running, it cleared up instantly and the engine smoothed out.

Thinking the problem was fixed, they went to raise the FEL and nothing happened. No hydraulics at all. Dealer told me I needed a new hydraulic pump. So taking their advice I ordered a new hydraulic pump, but opted to change it myself ($300+ for labor, no thanks).

After I got home I pulled the old pump. However, it appears the old pump is just fine. So I started looking into the gearbox the pump mounts to. When you crank the engine, the gears do not turn. So I pulled off the gearbox and found the shaft that drives the gearbox for the hydraulic pump sheared. This shaft also has what appears to be lobes for the fuel injectors. I'm not sure as to what this shaft is called. Now things are starting to make sense.

This is what I'm thinking happened... The shaft had a defect in it which caused it to slowly crack over time. Eventually it cracked enough that the shaft started twisting causing the injection timing to be off for the aft cylinder (reason for blue smoke and rough running engine). Finally when the shaft failed (torsional failure), the aft cylinder no longer was getting fuel (no more smoke & engine smoothed out) and the hydraulics stopped working.

One other thing I have noticed over the past few months is the my tractor seemed to be loosing power while driving and operating the FEL & BH. I never thought anything of it until now.

Tomorrow I'll be taking my broken parts to the dealer to try and order a replacement. I'm afraid this is going to be easy or cheap. I'll post more later.

They put a new fuel pump on on a guess? Hope they did not make you pay! But anyway the smoke went away yet they could not tell that it was running on 1 less cyl?

Anyway this is not the case in his yanmar. They have a gear that is rundirectly off the timing gears off the crank on the front of the motor. He would not be running at all if this gear sheared off. Its like a timing gear, basically i think it is the timing gear with a keyway shaft from the pump that goes into the gear from the hydro pump.
 
   / Sudden clunking/blue smoke diagnosis #12  
I think that would be the camshaft on a Yanmar.
 
   / Sudden clunking/blue smoke diagnosis #13  
If you are going to end up and tear it down anyway running it to further diagnose it wont do any more harm than what is done already.

I would start it and crack one injector at a time it sounds like an injector or pump to me and btw a bad rod bearing wont make it smoke even in a dream :laughing: good luck.

Something that will cause a knock and smoke besides some things already mentioned is a rocker that's came off just food for thought.
 
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   / Sudden clunking/blue smoke diagnosis #14  
Evofxdwg, I think you should look into Car Doc's advice that a valvetrain issue may cause some of these symptoms. I had an intake valve rocker arm come off my tractor when I first got it reassembled. It ran rough, was weak, sounded weird, and smoked a white-blue gray color sometimes, when it wasn't dark gray.

With your 3 cylinder I would expect similar but reduced symptoms to my 2 cylinder with a malfunctioning cylinder. The valve cover is very simple to remove, and much less messy than the pan. Start easy, and work toward hard. Check the valvetrain, it's simple and quick.

In the variety of engines (though not in tractors) that I have wrecked the ones that seem most similar to your symptoms all had valvetrain and/or cylinder problems: broken rings, cracked/broken piston, etc.

If it were me, I'd check the valvetrain, after isolating the faulty cylinder by cracking the injector lines, then pull the head if nothing else was apparent.

Clemsonfor had a good observation that you don't want to do any more damage to the crank or rods if it's one of those bearings, but I haven't experienced those types of problems cause blue smoke.

How much blowby is there from the vent tube? If there's little to none, it's not a ring or piston issue.
 
   / Sudden clunking/blue smoke diagnosis
  • Thread Starter
#15  
Here is a picture of the section of the shaft that sheared off. The splines connect to the gearbox that goes to the hydraulic pump.

Thanks HAAS. I'll check that out on mine. Although i didnt notice the hydro stopped working on mine, I was very surprised at the noise and may not have tried to lift anything after it started.
 
   / Sudden clunking/blue smoke diagnosis #16  
I had a 3 cyl Kubota that would suddenly start knocking and I thought the same thing, but it was an injector that quit woriking. Possibly water. Once I shut it off, changed the fuel filter, all was well.
The same symptoms as you describe.
Might want to check that first before pulling the pan........

x2, i would check injecters first
 
   / Sudden clunking/blue smoke diagnosis
  • Thread Starter
#17  
Now were getting into real tractor theory. I knew there would be some Sherlock Holmes mechanics on here. I was kinda thinking in the back of my mind, how could it smoking if its a lower end issue? The valve train/rocker arm possibility sounds like #1 to check with these symptoms. And a piston/ring problem #2.

So here is my flow chart for this weekend (comments?):

Start engine and:
1. (although this is not expected, it is easy to check) Make sure hydraulics still works. If not, start looking at hyd pump & drive.

2. Check blowby out the dipstick hole with engine running. (ive never pulled it with it running so really don't have a reference). I do have a vacum/pressure guage i can adapt to the hole and check running crankcase pressure.

3. I think i have a stethoscope somewhere: try to isolate the source area of the clunking sound.

4. Im not sure about this one: "isolating the faulty cylinder by cracking the injector lines." Am i looking for "no change" in running when cracking each injector line - thereby identifying the cyl with the problem? Or am i looking for lower pressure or flow to that injector or what? What about safety: how much diesel is going to come out under what pressure? Where are the fasteners that i crack open? (an actual fuel line fitting or is there a bleeder screw somewhere for each injector?)

shut it off and:
5. Pull the valve cover and spin and maybe start the motor briefly while observing for expected motion of all components. Also check the compression release movement on each cyl for any "stuckkage." (I just had this idea: could it be a broken valve spring or linkage broken on the compression release for one of the cyls?)

6. If nothing unexpected above, pull the pan and inspect for broke piston and, while im at it but not expected: loosey goosey rods at both ends by trying to shake them by hand (can i get my hand in there?). Maybe rotate the crank with a ratchet or a remote starter switch (no throttle) and listen/look for the clunk.

How do you check the cylinder compression on one of these engines? Or is this something not done because of the pressure involved?
 
   / Sudden clunking/blue smoke diagnosis #18  
When a fuel injector fails either by breaking, fuel line leak, or bad injection pump, the engine will sound like it has a rod knock. Injection pump failures are not as common as injector failures.

Sounds like an injector tip went bad and is dribbling fuel (instead of atomizing it) which is not burning, causing smoke. Mechanical injectors are set to "pop" at a certain PSI (for injection timing) but when it breaks it just lets the fuel spill out at the wrong time (no more injection timing). Then the dead cylinder knocks due to too much "liquid" fuel in the cylinder instead of "atomized" fuel.

Gene :^)
 
   / Sudden clunking/blue smoke diagnosis #19  
I think your flow chart is pretty good. It basically, in my mind, boils down to how much you're willing to risk damaging the engine by running to determine the problem. Thinking about it, here's what I would do:

1. Pull the valve cover. Check for damaged and/or loose parts, etc. The valve springs compress very easily compared to what you'll be used to on a car engine, I discovered. Apparently that's normal. But I'd pull the rocker arms one at a time and check for bent pushrods and stuff. If nothing shows up, put the cover back on, even fingertight, so you don't spray oil all over the engine bay and shop floor.

2. Activate the compression release, then wire it open, and crank it over. While this is happening, you should be able to (since you wired the release open and have a spare hand) test the hydraulics. If you get any activity at all then you know that's good. Meanwhile, listen/feel for heavy clunking or whatever. Piston slap is higher pitched than bearing knock.

(By doing it this way, you don't have to run the engine at all, and it's not seeing any compression, hopefully minimizing any damage to the cylinders and/or the lower end.)

3. At this point decide if you want to risk running it or not. I would, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. From my perspective, if I have to tear into the internals of the engine, I'm going to replace all the worn or near lower-limit parts anyway.
Option A: Fire it up, then check for blowby. After you know it will start, I would shut it down, then remove one of the injector lines, and try it again. If it won't start, put it back on, and move to the next one, and so forth. When I did mine, I just removed the line altogether where it attaches to the injector. I ran it into a small bottle so I wouldn't spill any fuel and make a mess. Easiest, but involves running the engine the most.

Option B: Pull the exhaust manifold. Insert ear plugs (My YM240 wasn't that much louder, but it's really noisy anyway). Fire it up, see which cylinder blows smoke, and what color it is, check for blowby, etc. It may not blow unusual smoke at all, or very little. You may end up having to loosen the injector lines anyway to isolate the dead cylinder. It will depend on what else you find.

If it's a broken ring or piston, there should be compression passing into the crankcase, and significant blowby should be evident. If blowby is minimal, then it's not passing compression, and the trouble is elsewhere. The good news is that likely means there isn't anything wrong with major components, just the fuel system.

For peace of mind, if you want, try pulling the pan and wiggling the rods and main bearings. I've never even seen a 1610D, so have no clue how tough that would be; it's going to be easier than on a car though! A bearing alone shouldn't give you smoking.

You may have to pull the head. Has the motor ever seen ether? With the head off, you can see if a valve is chipped, piston cracked, or rings broken/missing. I expect, though, that you'll have a good indication before you have to get to that point, of what the issue(s) is(are).

They do make compression testers for these. They replace the injectors and are bolted down with the retaining hardware as the injector would be. You can't hold them by hand pressure: Compression PSI on these is several times more than a regular gasoline engine. If it's bleeding past the rings or piston, I think it should be obvious. Compression testing may be viable, if you can get the parts. Hoye sells and rents them here: Yanmar tractor tools

Good luck with it; I hope you're able to figure things out. Keep us in the loop.
 
   / Sudden clunking/blue smoke diagnosis #20  
You dont need to pull the Oil filler cap to check blowby. There is a blowby/vent tube on the motor somewhere. On my ym2000 its on the rt side if sitting on tractor, pointing toward the ground. If you have blowby you will see smoke/exhaust or feel it while running at decent rpms. If you open the oil filler cap its like a huricane of oil and it will sling misted oil out at you and a breeze from the rotating mass of the crank and will be harder to tell anything. Id go with 284s process first. I dont think you have a hydro issue. You can with the compression release wired shut you can crack a hydro line and see it pumping as it is directly connected to the timing componets. If working you will get an oil flow just by cranking. NO need to actually cycle the 3pt.
 

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