Survival strategies/natural or manmade disasters

[ejb]

After this past horrific week, with the inability to do anything in response to this attack on this great country, I need to focus my energies on something else for a while. I consider myself someone that stays pretty prepared for most emergencies, but after this past week, and what the following weeks and months may bring, I am not sure any more.

I am going to start putting together gear and strategies that I would need to protect my family in case any of the awful scenarios that have been predicted ad-nausem over the past week on TV, actually do come true. In particular, nuclear, biological or chemical attacks; an extended all-out war that disrupts normal supply chains (i.e. food electricity water etc).

I (and I am willing to bet most of the people on this forum) are probably in less immediate danger, and better prepared than most, due to the fact that most of us live in rural areas, away from major population areas so not to be a target, but given the widespread disruptions that could occur, I think I need to do better.

Also, not really looking for a discussion about wether or not preparing for the worst is necessary; I would rather prepare and never use it, than to be caught unprepared. I could easily forgive myself for spending some cash on supplies that I never use, than I could ever forgive myself for not having been prepared when I should have.

Here are some of the things that I am thinking about, any other ideas are welcomed:

Generator - mine will run the house for a week (propane). I am considering increasing the number and size of the tanks so that if I only run the necessities, (i.e. pumps, a few lights, radio etc) I could make it 2-3 months. This might require an underground tank. I am also seriously thinking about getting a second-hand diesel or PTO generator as a backup. I usually have 250 gallons of diesel on hand, so that would extend the electricity even further.

Water - I have a private well/good clean water, but I'd love to be able to store 500 or so gallons of drinking water in the basement for emergencies (i.e. no electricity and propane runs out). What are good sources for large-clean containers? Tips on storing potable water? I have a 35000 gallon pool that I could use (even in the winter) if I need to get water for washing and flushing...thats a nice thing to have. There is also a lake 1/2 mile away, but wouldn't want to drink that untreated.

Food - we usually have at least 2 weeks of food in the house. I'd like to increase the suppy of things we normally would eat anyway to about a 3-4 month supply. In addition, I am checking out other foodstuffs (that I may or may not ever use) that can be stored for really long periods of time. Grains/flour/rice/pasta can goods etc. I think a 1 year supply of the basic things is not a bad idea.

Supplies - TP, medicines, papertowels, garabgae bags, plastic bags etc. You can't ever really have too much of this stuff since it will last forever. A one year supply. Bleach is another good thing to have around for purifying bad water.

Self-defense - I already own a Colt-Ar15 with a few thousand rounds of ammo and a Browning high-power with several hundred rounds. This is probably sufficient, but if I was going to round out this I would like to add a small caliber (i.e. .22 rifle) for hunting small game and possibly a shotgun. My land has plenty of turkey, deer and other critters. I don't hunt now, but nice to know I could.

Thats it for now. Its been a tough week for all of us, and at least for me has made me feel completely helpless. Wondering if anyone else has any other suggestions or would care to share any of their own ideas??

I'd be particularly interested if anyone has any specific experience with biological, checmical and nuclear emergencies. What kind of distaster specific gear/preparedness would one really wish they had?

Gas masks are probably not a bad idea, but are they all created equal?

Sorry for the depressing topic, but I think if nothing else, going thru the exercise of preparing for the unthinkable, gives back a little bit of control over our lives that seems to have been stolen from us this past week.

Thoughts?

 

[Phred]

I agree. While we all know that the Y2K turned out to be a non-event, some sensible preparation is a good idea. This came home last week when I found I only had less than ¼ tank of gas in my daily truck. I was forced to pay $2 / gallon to get home. This got me to thinking about how dependent we are on the local stores. One of the local gas stations actually ran out of fuel for a day or two. So I would have been left with fumes in the gas burner and only one (of the two) full tank in my diesel pickup in the event of a real fuel crisis.

Several things come to mind:
1)A 223, but also a semiauto 12 gauge. Keep the ammo in metal ammo cans, that you can pickup for a few bucks apiece. Reloading gear and components; powder, etc.. would also be a good idea.
2) Access to a well or ponds but what about filtration? Anybody have a good source for a portable and compact water filter? Many years ago I use to do my share of backpacking and we used these small portable filters than you could hand pump and produce clean water. Also iodine tablets work (kills any bugs) but the water tastes like crap.
3) Diesel and perhaps gas storage. I have read that with fuel additives you can keep this stuff around for a couple of years. Anybody try this before? Probably best to buy in winter since summer blend diesel would gel in winter.
4) Wood stove. If you had a chain saw, some gas, and a wood stove you could stay warm for a long time.
5) Rice and canned food is probably the most cost effective.
6) Low cost diesel generator. All the cheap generators I have seen are gas powered. A cheap diesel would be better because you could store a few hundreds gallons of off road diesel which would be cheaper than gas and could run a truck or tractor in a pinch.
7) Keep at least ¼ tank in all vehicles. Just fill it up once it gets to ¼. Better for the fuel pump any way.

Just my two cents.

Fred

 

[RobertN]

The MSR "Mini Works"water filter is what the Marines use. I bought one, and like it. The PUR is nice too, but recent tests show it inconsistant in overall purification. The MSR is easy to work, but is slower than the PUR.

One thing I like about the MSR, is it's easy to keep the clean side clean. The PUR has a hose you have to hook up on each side, store seperately, and make sure not to mix up. The MSR just screws on top of a Nalgene bottle or dromitory bag.

They make a "squad" type of filter too, for handling larger quantities of water for more than one person.

http://www.msrcorp.com/prod/prod_filters.htm

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

 

[Jugger]

/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[patrickg]

EJB, There are food grade plastic drums available used for anywhere between free and about $20 for 35-55 gal size. I bought some for my leasehold in Baja California Norte, Mexico as there is no running water and about 3inch annual rainfall. Mine were from Kikoman Teriayaki (sp?) sauce but soon lost any addition to the flavor of our water. They are blue plastic with two threaded and rubber gasketed bungs. Quite robust. This type (but not just this contents) seem to be widely available. For long term storage, super-chlorinate with bleach, following the directions on the Purex or XYZ brand bottle. I recommend the super-chlorination directions, not the regular chlorination directions but that is just my belt AND suspenders mentality. A carbon filter will pull out the chlorine as you use the water. These barrels can be burried with attention to a good seal. Pond water and the like is well within the capability or backpacking filters and their big brothers like the military use. Filtration ahead of purification is the key to extending the useful life of the expensive cartridges.

Regarding living off the land survivalist style. When all the folks in the cities that don't have turkey and deer and vegies BUT do have guns, come out to the country to get some food it will not be a pretty sight. After a few dozen rounds are sprayed at everything that moves or makes a sound (animal or person) everything will pretty much get hard to find and dangerous to go look for. In a real crisis panic will ensue and I would envision most stock to be wasted and left rotting in the field by bozos who don't know how to butcher and then will be looking elsewhere for a meal.

Freeze dried food has come along nicely since the early days and it keeps well as does rice, beans, dehydrated spuds and onions etc. When packaging food for extended storage, whatever you put it in, put that in metal if possible as it is amazing what rodentia can do. To store flour, pasta, beans, lentils and the like, put dry ice in the bottom of the container then fill with foodstuff and lightly seal the HD plastic bag that actually contacts the foodstuff, rubber bands are good. When you can press on the balooning bag and it does not reinflate with CO2 from the dry ice then the dry ice is gone and you can seal the bag. As the CO2 is heavier than air it has displaced the air and the contained oxygen which will help preserve the contents. Since virtually ALL flour and similar products are liable to have been contaminated with weevil eggs which will hatch and the larvae feed on your food, the residual CO2 that replaced the air will literally drown them. Place the food containers in a cool dry place.

Sonabuoys used in ASW come in plastic sealable containers. These are used by the thousands by the Navy. The containers, in good condition and waterproof with good seals, are available from many surplus outlets. They are suitable for storing things that you want to peotect from moisture and light. They are suitable for using to bury things which need to be in good order when retrieved... guns, ammo, money, valuables, food? documents, things...

MRE's are widely available and store nicely A N D are pretty good chow. Much of this sort of fare is available via the www.

Be very careful about buying inferior quality product irrespective of how well packaged it is. There is a lot of junk available, much of which is dehydrated not freeze dried. Dehydrated can be OK but caveat emptor. A good plan is to buy what you and your family will actually eat. Use up your oldest stock on a regular basis and replace it with fresh. I have known several families with a garage full of stuff neither they nor their dogs would eat. Sure, if it were a real crisis, they'd eat it instead of starving and it would be healthy but that isn't the point. Thousands of dollars of "survival food" all reaching the better if used by date and getting thrown away is a bad deal. Buy as much as you reasonably expect you would need and then use a little of it on a regular basis, say once a month for one meal or a major part therof and then ever so often replace with fresh stock.

In the olden days Lipton had freexe dried caseroles that were great, just add hot water, cover, wait a few min and oo la la good eating, Turkey Tetrazini, Potatos au Gratin, Beef Stroganoff. Not intended to be backpacking food but was super light freeze dried and made a pound of good chow when reconstituted. Mountain House brand was one of the best in the old days. I think they are still producing but I don't know their competition. Maybe someone can comment with personal experience from this century/millinium.

I could go on and on but not sure what you want to hear about. Hope some of this was "on target".

Patrick

 

[fishman]

Patrickg,

Very interesting information. I might add one item that may be helpful.

Recently I bought a vacuum-sealing system for my wife. Paid about $130 for it at Sams. It operates by removing all of the air from a bag full of stuff and heat-sealing it. It uses special bags of course, but cost is about 40 cents a piece, and they can be used more than once. The items we have packed stay much fresher than their zip-lock counterparts. Most items are claimed to be in good shape for 1-3 years, according to the manufacturer.

Thawed some steaks out this weekend that had been frozen for 2+months (good sale!) and they looked like they had just come out of the butcher case.

As an added benefit, you can seal non-edible items like matches, paper, or anything you would not want to see wet. It works very well.

 

[snowman]

Alot depends on how severe of a disaster you're trying to plan
for.

I have a 12,000 watt Yamaha generator for the whole
house and a 5,000 watt generator for the small stuff. Both
are gas powered; I keep the tanks full along with 15 gallons
of gas in gas cans. My purpose was to provide power in
case of severe snow or ice storms.

Both would be pretty much useless though, in an all out war,
as I would run out of fuel relatively quickly.

For energy, probably the best would be some sort of
manual generator - where you could create power by
turning something (ie: like riding it like a bike) and the
energy you create would somehow be stored in a battery
cell. In theory, this would be a never ending supply of
power .

 

[patrickg]

Ahhh, jaaaa, Fishman, I got one of those thingies too. Had it so long I forgot when I didn't have it, maybe my subconscious thought everybody had them. Actually have tossed out a defective heat sealer and retain two vacuum sealers (with built-in heat sealers). They are great for some clothes items too. For instance, you want to take your expedition down filled overpants and down booties for just in case but you think just the down parka will probably be enough with luck and don't want to fill your pack with big stuff or you want to get it all on the airplane as carry-on but it is too voluminous. Vacuum seal the stuff. Down filled goods are mostly air and boy howdy do they ever shrink when you put the vac to them. Even Dupont Fiberfill stuff shrinks pretty good as do bulky sweaters and the like. And it is fun to see it "grow" when you open the pouch. When we were younger and wilder (would you believe younger?) we would vac seal spare undies and stuff to reduce size and keep stuf dry. Later as you consume food and make more room in your pack there is room for vac sealed stuff to be opened, like "fresh" undies. Similarly we would vac seal various trail foods like home made gorp and 2-3 person quantities of oatmeal, bisquit makins with baking powder whih would keep well for being dry and on and on.

I wish I had an approved (medically safe) way to "can" stuff in those pouches, stuff like pears, corn, etc. rather than in Ball/Mason jars.

One of the reasons stuff keeps better in the freezer vacuum sealed is the plastic sold for those vac seal units is pretty vapor tight. A lot of the zip bags are somewhat permeable and will allow freezer burn (dehydration). Zips in appropriate thickness will do a good job as well. I don't know just how much it helps but I squeeze and suck out excess air before sealing a zip to go into the freezer. I can unrecommend vacuum sealing bread, a friend got out of control and tried it. I thought the results would have been obvious like puting a whole raw egg in the shell in a microwave.

Did you ever use a vacuum sealer or other source of vacuum to vacuum seal stuff in canning jars? You fill a canning jar with stuff, say mixed nuts, and put one of the regular canning lids on the jar. Place the jar in a vacuum chamber (comes with some vac sealer units) and apply vac. air is sucked out of jar past lid but when you let regular air pressure back into the chamber the lid acts like a one way valve and seals tight. You screw on the threaded retainer part and "ta dah" vacuum sealed nuts that retain freshness for a long time. The theory is that there might be items that don't lend themselves to sealing in plastic but you want in a vacuum, hence the jar approach. Nuts were not a particularly good example but I just happen to be thinking about nuts a lot lately, sometimes the ones you eat, especially since latest Reader's Digest had article regarding how many foods thought to be BAD aren't soo bad after all and nuts were among them.

Patrick
(got 2 more inches of rain overnight, gotta go help it drain where I want it to go where my eye was off and can't get the water convinced to flow uphill.)

 

[patrickg]

Phred, Semi auto doesn't have ultimate reliabiltiy of a good pump.\

Halezone tablets and iodine each are used for water purification but neither kill everything the other does. Chlorination via household bleach is much more practical if water isn't tooooo bad. God particulate/turbibity filters upstream of a good PUR or equivalent brand is effective, simple to use, and much more convenient.

Yeah, tastes real bad, that's why Wylers fruit drink mixes were invented, to mask the taste of water purification chemicals. When you drain water from a 1 qt catchment in a rock, strain out the things you see swiming and add purification, Wyler's (especially the Lemonade flavor) is truly a wonder.

As there are storage additives for Diesel and Gas there are also anti-gel additives for diesel. Since winter blend diesel is essentially diesel cut with Kerosene to lower the cloud and pour points I'd recommend getting summer diesel with its higher energy content and using an anti-gel additive or getting a litle kerosene on the side to add if needed (don't expect you would).

There are also biocides to add to diesel fuel as there are biologics that live on diesel fuel and water. It is known in some areas as the "Black Death" and can plug filters as fast as you can change them ad infinitum. Filters are not the answer, use a recognized biocidal agent like Biobor or one of its competitors. Follow the directions on the container to "shock" your tank (double dose) and then keep up with a mainenance dose as you add new fuel. Doesn't harm the injectors or pumps but not using it with stored fuel can be a nightmare. As you use fuel from your tank (storage or truck or generator tank) air replaces the outgoing volume. This air has moisture in it just about everywhere but parts of AZ and NM (insert smiley face emoticon) If it should cool down some at night or whatever the moisture in that air will condense out on the inside of the tank and run down to the bottom. The black death or whatever lives at the water-fuel interface. Since it is virtually impossible, certainly not economically feasible, to elliminate moisture from stored fuel, you are subject to this menace. Use a biocide for any tank that doesn't get completely emptied frequently. Almost empty doesn't count. Even complete empty doesn't always get rid of it unless tank is scrubbed. I've seen several diesel owners paying good money to have tanks steam cleaned because of neglected fuel storage considerations. Once infected, and you can get it with new fuel, it is a hassle. I use Biobor in my truck since I have a 65 gal tank and the truck may go across the country in 3 days or sit for 3 months. I add it to my 300 gal off road (tractor) fuel tank.

If at all convenient I recommend never leting the tank go below 1/2, reduces condensation and keeps you prepared.

Had it not been for this terror attack, small barely used almost new portable generators should be cheap and easy to find due to fizzle of Y2K. A lot of panic buying followed by return to complacency. There it sets, don't need it, money tied up, ran once but way too noisy, etc etc. Will be cheap again soon if no new atacks for a few months as the attention span of the masses is quite short. Diesel will make the search harder as the major discounters go up to about 5KW in gas and after that you need to see Cummins-Onan or ...

Canned goods. Good and bad. If you don't need to change locations and will use them up over time before they become stale, pretty good. Otherwise they are heavy and deteriorate over time if not rotated in your regular rations. There are irradiated foods, freeze dried etc with excellent storage lives.

Patrick

 

[RPM]

... regarding generators, I dug up this old thread while poking around tonight:

PTO Generators

I found it interesting anyway!

Patrick

 

[jdkid]

Hi ya
well i'll side with ya on a few points.. if all hell brakes out and ya had to loot to keep going what would ya get ?????????think about it ! most here would go for fuel and food and water where some city people would also get new TV's cd players computers .alot don't think out a few months or years most food will not last fresh meat/veg's /frut etc etc .Phred made a good point of getting reloading gear ,primers powder etc i'll run down a list i'd shop for if put in the worst case
reloading gear for black powder firearms ..make ya own powder! oil/fuel ,fan belts and car parts ,but ya will not need many as people will ditch there cars once they run out .. seeds to keep growing food ,water and a way of treating water ,battreys heaps of them all kinds .chain saw chains and parts .drugs ie frist aid kind of stuff ,hand tools .consturion stuff ie steel wood nails etc etc motor bikes ,better on fuel than pick ups oh yea books!!! how to kind of books ie make bio fuel, power from wind etc etc .camping gear sleeping bags water proof gear gas cookers .i think parts for my lawn mower would be way down the list.... a point people make about being out of the citys being safe is not true once the citys run out of food etc etc the people will move out to find food these people will be armed and wanting food .you would also find people banding together to look after them selfs so haveing something to barter or skill will help .like alot of people on here will have seen the many survival shows on TV ...not the sas or seal kind of shows, it shows up at sad fact that 99% of people if put in that kind of siturtion they would fail they forget water /food/ shelter ,ok i'm talking WORST case here where we are looking at world wide stone age but even in the best of times it pays to have few things in stock ya never know when the next flood or snow storm is coming
take care
JD Kid

 

[patrickg]

Yeah, I took a look and recall that I had seen some of the posts. It is an engineering trade off issue, really (some economics too but that is a given). You have a strong engine, why not use it. Fine idea, save money to use elsewhere... Some of us have tractors with engines way beyond what a generator of the size we woud buy needs so it isn't a particulary efficient marriage. What if you need to use the tractor for something else? If the genny were only to charge a batt bank then charge it and then go use the tractor but if the genny is lighting the house and running your freezer you have just elliminated your tractor and obsoleted all other implements.

I could see a combo generator/welder as a portable tractor PTO driven "Power Implement" that could be taken to any work site on your place or surounding area. Although a good use isn't neccessarily an emergency use it would be available for an emergency. I have problems with tying the tractor down during an extended (multi-day or multi-week) emergency as in many emergency scenarios a tractor could be a good tool to have for any number of reasons.

Maybe its just me but the only way I would opt for a PTO genny is the portable welder and elec source ref above or if it were a choice of PTO versus no genny at all. I'm sure there are different best answers and or preferences for folks with other circumstances.

I have used various gazillion in one tools/implements. Better than not having the ones you use at all but no comparison to having one each of the ones needed. Some folks around here buy a second or third tractor just to "ALWAYS" have a brush hog or box blade immediately available and use the other tractor to do the mix and match swap implements game.

Patrick (Just glad to have one good little tractor, L4610HSTC)

 

[dmccarty]

Here is my two cents on PTO generators....

I want one! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I sized my tractor to run a PTO generator. Since Hurricane Andrew chased me from South Florida and I moved to "safer" NC, I have been through three major storms if I'm counting right. Not to mention a couple of bad ice/snow storms. I KNOW that my property, even though its off a major road and near a town, will take a week or so to have power restored. So I have to have some way to run the septic pumps if I have one, the well, run the fridge/freezer, and some light duty stuff.

I don't plan nor would I want to run the generator all day. I figured I would hook up the generator after the storm has passed. I would only "turn on" the power first thing in the morning to run the pumps and power the fridge/freezers. Cook breakfast and let the fridge/freezers cool back down. Turn everything off until lunch time and repeat. Do the same thing around dinner. Before bedtime to it again if the freezer/fridge needs to be cooled. I would hope I would not have to run the tractor more than 4-5 hours a day. I'm not sure what my tractor burns at PTO speed but it can't be more than a gallon an hour so I need 4-5 gallons a day. I refill the tractor right now out of two cans but the truck would have 34 gallons so I should have 44 gallons of fuel which should get us through the week.....

Once we are on the property I'm going to look into getting a tank to store the fuel but I'm not doing that until I move out there.

Taking the PTO off and putting on a box blade tain't gonna be a problem all things considered. And I think any work I would be doing with the tractor would be storm clean up and overwith after a couple of days. At least the immediate must get done work. I'm still cleaning up and will be for years after storms five years ago....

The PTO generator is much cheaper than a genset of the same power rating...

Later...
Dan McCarty

 

[jdkid]

Hi ya
true story the guy next door to us years ago got a PTO welder/gen just in case the power went off and to weld up cattle yards etc etc well he never used it for years then in 92 we got a real bad snow storm prob was weld/gen was at house but tractor on a fence line 3 miles away with no way till the roads were cleared to get it .. self contained would be my way of doing it i have even looked at them from the point of haveing a bigger welder than i can run on our power lines also means ele/tools can come into the fields
take care
JD Kid

 

[StanInCalif]

A Ruger 10-22 and a Remington 870 in 12 ga. with improved cylinder or modified barrel would be my choices to round out your arsenal. - Stan

 

[ejb]

Like your ideas..thanks. A few question. Why keep the ammo in ammo cans? Like I said, I usually have a few thousand rounds around and usually just keep them in the box they came in..stopped in the local Army Surplus store and picked up 4 .223 ammo cans for about $4/each, seems like a pretty good deal but I may or may not use them for ammo...does the ammo box provide some benefit other than convience?

Been shopping the last few days, picked up 4 more 5 gallon gas cans at walmart, so now I have 25 gallons at any given time, but that doesn't seem like much...any cheap sources for 55 gallon or bigger gasoline tanks? Any reason not to just keep it in a used 55 gallon drum? I have a couple of big blue 55 gallon drums that previously held some sort of chemcals, probably a cleaner, but not sure. Is that a crazy idea? I don't worry about storing a lot of diesel (I usually have 250 gallons on hand), but gas is a whole lot more flammable....

 

[Phred]

Patrickg,

Lots of good info.

However, I think a modern semiauto is good enough. Maybe not quite as reliable as a pump, but my benalli has never jammed and with a high capacity mag it makes one heck of a self defense gun. In my opnion the much faster follow up shot is worth the slight reduction in reliability.

Fred

 

[gws]

Your supplies are only good if your near them. In a disaster you might not be with your food. Take NYC, People who live across from the WTC might have all the food they needs, just lots of police to keep them from getting next to them. Maybe its a freight train carrying harzardous cargo, your evacuated. oops no food and supplies.

Gary.

 

[ejb]

>>Your supplies are only good if your near them

True, but if you have NO supplies, then it doesn't matter if you are near them or not...If a nuclear bomb goes off in my house, all the food in the world isn't going to matter, but if it goes off 1000 miles from me, and it causes huge disruptions to society, I'll be glad to be prepared as best I can. Hope I never need to use it, but I'll be glad to know its there (I also hope to never need my car insurance or life insurance, but again, I still have it).