T-4 Emissions coming for next year?

[chickenman]

How much of the price increase may be due to gouging?

 

[Sysop]

How much of the price increase may be due to gouging?

I would guarantee there is at least some, "to cover the additional potential warranty issues" I'd bet they would tell us...

 

[k0ua]

Could you link a couple of those threads? I have searched but didn't find any threads dealing with this subject. Maybe the subject is inside other threads that were abouyt other topics. Thanks.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...-got-my-l5460-yesterday-gone.html#post3461278

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-buying-pricing/283010-my-new-l4060-hstc-pics.html

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-buying-pricing/287279-opinions-l60-vs-l40-esp.html

It was very hard to find these.. there were more, but I cannot remember where.

James K0UA

 

[Dieselrider]

I read through the first link"s thread. Saw nothing discussing the T-4 emissions, lots of talk about the exposed hydraulic lines. Didn't read through the other links as they are 8-9 pages long but will look at those when I have more time. I was looking for something on the T-4 emissions and how they are/ will effect the tractors. Thanks.

 

[oosik]

The link I posted( #6) is directly from EPA and has their slant. I've seen threads from folks who recently purchased tier 4 tractors and their initial experiences. What I have not seen are any sites, postings or threads from industry on their slant to this tier 4 situation. I've heard grumblings from dealers regarding added costs, maintenance issues and potential customer complaints/dissatisfaction.
I know that new tractor users/purchasers are getting the shaft and the public is being hood winked into thinking that farming in general is any sort of major contributor to air pollution. It really amazes me that farming/tractor use was chosen by EPA to take this hit.

 

[houstonscott]

T4, with direct injection expect more power, use less fuel, run smoother, start easer. Expect high pressure fuel pump issues, EGR issues, particulate filter issues, having to add AG Blue to a tank on occasion. The quality of the parts your manufacture choose to comply will matter. If your choice has Bosch stuff to comply I wouldn't worry, they invented the high pressure diesel with VW. All others are suspect and unknowns. The technology is mature and does perform better then indirect and is extremely clean (if you care). The EGR is the weak link and will clog with carbon over time robbing you of power and performance.

HS

 

[Dieselrider]

T4, with direct injection expect more power, use less fuel, run smoother, start easer. Expect high pressure fuel pump issues, EGR issues, particulate filter issues, having to add AG Blue to a tank on occasion. The quality of the parts your manufacture choose to comply will matter. If your choice has Bosch stuff to comply I wouldn't worry, they invented the high pressure diesel with VW. All others are suspect and unknowns. The technology is mature and does perform better then indirect and is extremely clean (if you care). The EGR is the weak link and will clog with carbon over time robbing you of power and performance.

HS

Thank you, HoustonScott. That is the kind of info I was looking for, thoughts on the systems themselves. Do you think the EGR will need replaced often and will that be something that the owner will have access to? Thanks.

 

[JP9MM]

i asked a local dealer about the tier 4 emissions, He said it included a high dollar exhaust filter (2-4k) and a fuel nozzle set up to clean the filter and with that a bunch of junk to monitor the filters condition so it knows when to burn off contaminants

 

[houstonscott]

There are two technologies in particulate filters. One traps carbon particulate and then burns then off occasionally. They burn off two ways, either a separate electric burn off, like your charcoal starter, or the injectors put some raw fuel in the exhaust stream were it burns in the filter, most popular. The ECU manages this and is invisible to the operator except you might notice the smell when the ECU decides to burn the particulate. The EGR valve is able to be cleaned but may be hard to get too. On a VW the part is $80 or close. On a diesel car you can see EGR issues at as few as 50k miles. VW will give you one cleaning under warranty. Running clean fuel is important and using additives become more prevalent. People who run 5% bio or power service diesel kleen report EGR issues are much less an issue. Not sure how tractors are going to do we are in uncharted ground now. The AG blue or the catalytic converter technologies to go after the NOx are not problematic. With an AG blue system you will have to keep a reservoir filled, but its down stream of the engine and will not effect the expensive thing; your engine. The catalytic converter technology is expensive to replace but requires no special attention, and in an diesel automobile is easy an 100k mile part, not sure how it might do in a tractor operating environment. High pressure pumps can be a problem, are very expensive and in a failure can destroy the engine. Ford has major issues with theirs, google ford Diesel engine failures. BMW had issues with one on a direct injection gas engine. There is no skimping on the quality of materials and assembly in these pumps. Automobiles are driven different then tractors. Tractors sit allot, and may have many short operating periods, start, stop, start, no ones how the system will do under those conditions. If your color is using their own designs and parts you might go through some growing pains as they make their system reliable. If your color had Bosch/VW, MB, or BMW design and produce those parts I wouldn't worry at all you could have very well got a better machine. The problem is no one can tell you how say Kubota developed their system and who makes the injectors, high pressure pump, and other parts in the system. These modern diesels produce more HP, get much better fuel economy, are more responsive, are much more quite, and are very, very, clean. The question is are they suitable for tractors? I understand how they work, and drive a BMW 335d. Have had a TDi VW and have followed the technology very closely as it has developed over the last 13 years. I bought a new tier 3, Kubota L3800 a few months ago before the change. Not enough information for me to make a choice. I almost moved on the Yanmar, they make great diesels and I know they have a partnership with BMW to develop their system, I would put money it's trouble free. This direct injection technology is currently flowing from diesels to gas cars, with and without turbos, it's how all engines will operate in the next few years. HS

 

[Sysop]

First off, lots of great info and thanks to everyone for sharing.

I think direct injection is something that's pretty well tried and true at this point and I think it's great it's coming to a price point that all machines are starting to take advantage of it. Particulate filters on the other hand seem to be more of a source of expense and maintenance concern. I've known several folk with trvcks that have had issues with the particulate filters and the cleaning/regen modes. I knew that was something I wanted to avoid getting a tractor, and is one of the things that made me start looking about a year ago (a couple years ahead of schedule). In my shopping around I had learned the Mahindra 4035 has a Bosch system with direct injection that they state "complies with Tier IV norms" but doesn't have a particulate filter and is much simpler than most of the Tier IV systems. I've seen some users say it's only interim tier iv compliant, and I've seen articles question how much change will be needed on the system, if any, to maintain compliance. For now, I thought of it as having the benefits of Tier IV without the drawbacks of Tier IV; having the benefits of direction injection without the expense of the particulate filter and extra sensors. I like that there are "phases" these changes go through, it gives the consumer some extra choices along the way.