"Tactical" Question FEL on steep hill
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daTeacha
Veteran Member
My ground is pretty much a 4/12 pitch, about like a pole barn roof. I have had to move piles around a fair amount, mostly with my old Kubota B7100. I learned a lot about digging piles on hillsides in a relatively short time, but I'm far from an expert, so take this for what it is or isn't worth.
From what I can understand, you have a section of pile in a trail that you want to open up so you can drive the tractor through it. You can approach the pile from either the uphill or downhill side. You have a loader and a box blade to facilitate your work. You have very little seat time on your tractor.
If I was in your position, I would want to have the bucket uphill a lot at the beginning of the project. To me, the tractor seems much more stable with the nose uphill, especially with a full bucket. Having the thing nose down before you even start filling the bucket seems to put a lot more of the weight on the front tires and tends to lift the rear.
Use the FEL to take bites out of the pile from the bottom side, learning to fill the bucket as you get some hours behind you. You'll push in with the bucket about level then lift and curl back as you creep slowly forward. When you have a pretty hole cut in, lift the bucket high, roll it forward, and lower the cutting edge into the top of your cut. You can lift the front tires of the tractor with the downforce from the bucket if need be, or put it on top of the cut then roll the edge back. Either way will collapse the top edge of your cut. You can then either drive on the newly dropped material or pick it up and drop it elsewhere. When you get a pretty good "highwall" cut into the pile, come in from above it and push the top into your hole. You can probably make several passes and end up with a path through the berm but not at full depth. Then just make repeated trips through it, lowering it a few inches each time.
The manual that came with my new tractor describes with pictures how to use the loader on a pile. Check your manuals and you might find some useful pictures.
Keep us posted, and get some pics of the tractor eating the pile for us.
From what I can understand, you have a section of pile in a trail that you want to open up so you can drive the tractor through it. You can approach the pile from either the uphill or downhill side. You have a loader and a box blade to facilitate your work. You have very little seat time on your tractor.
If I was in your position, I would want to have the bucket uphill a lot at the beginning of the project. To me, the tractor seems much more stable with the nose uphill, especially with a full bucket. Having the thing nose down before you even start filling the bucket seems to put a lot more of the weight on the front tires and tends to lift the rear.
Use the FEL to take bites out of the pile from the bottom side, learning to fill the bucket as you get some hours behind you. You'll push in with the bucket about level then lift and curl back as you creep slowly forward. When you have a pretty hole cut in, lift the bucket high, roll it forward, and lower the cutting edge into the top of your cut. You can lift the front tires of the tractor with the downforce from the bucket if need be, or put it on top of the cut then roll the edge back. Either way will collapse the top edge of your cut. You can then either drive on the newly dropped material or pick it up and drop it elsewhere. When you get a pretty good "highwall" cut into the pile, come in from above it and push the top into your hole. You can probably make several passes and end up with a path through the berm but not at full depth. Then just make repeated trips through it, lowering it a few inches each time.
The manual that came with my new tractor describes with pictures how to use the loader on a pile. Check your manuals and you might find some useful pictures.
Keep us posted, and get some pics of the tractor eating the pile for us.
JerryG
Super Member
If the hill is very steep and you start to dig in going up hill with the bucket, the front of the tractor will try to lift. As they say, been there done that. Ant going to do that again.
3RRL
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I guess everyone has their preferred method and I respect that. Personally, I can see a lot better looking backwards using the boxblade as a dozer blade. I'm sitting right over the rear tires looking clearly at what my boxblade and tires are doing. The vantage point is much better than trying to see over the hood and past the fel bucket....at least for me its.KentT said:
There are certainly more than one way to get the job done and safety is/should be a main concern. That's why you need to go with your instincts and do what you feel is safe and will work best for you. I'm not disagreeing or trying to change your minds, only sharing what has worked well for me.
In my case, I had a similar slope to cut some trails and roads on. There were many boulders and rocks on the slope. At first I tried working down with the fel bucket but found I could not see what I was working. When the bucket skidded I would freak out as I started to plummet down. So I decided to go down backwards, using the boxblade as a dozer blade and also using it as a stop because it was filled with material. I also created a path where my tires where on good ground now. It was much easier to see what I was doing that way. I could determine for sure if I had a rock or dirt behind the blade instead of guessing. It allowed me stop and pull forward to get a better bite. Then, pushing the dirt down the slope, each time I had a better "road" for my tractor tires to be on. But being able to see much better what I was moving was key to me.
Again, in my situation, I felt much safer doing it this way.
Here are photos of the slope I did that way.
3RRL
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I also used the same technique digging out a decomposed granite (DG) pit. Doing much the same as SCrich is intending to do (I think). I pulled forward carefully up the hill because it was hard to see over the hood and fel bucket. Once I got on top, I started cutting the dirt backwards, in reverse, pushing it down with the boxblade. After I got the topsoil off, I turned around and drove backwards UP the hill and used the scarifiers to loosen the DG.
Then I drove forward back up the slope and used the boxblade again, bulldozing in reverse. I did this until I had cut a pretty deep "road" in the pit and moved all that material down to the bottom where I moved it to my barn pad. My boxblade is 7' wide. I felt very safe inside my DG pit road because I could see very well what my boxblade was doing working in reverse like that. You can see that in going in reverse, my tires are now on a good smooth and solid surface.
Then I drove forward back up the slope and used the boxblade again, bulldozing in reverse. I did this until I had cut a pretty deep "road" in the pit and moved all that material down to the bottom where I moved it to my barn pad. My boxblade is 7' wide. I felt very safe inside my DG pit road because I could see very well what my boxblade was doing working in reverse like that. You can see that in going in reverse, my tires are now on a good smooth and solid surface.
N80
Super Member
Rob, one problem I see is that we don't have dirt like that around here! At least I don't. If its dry, I cannot push through my soil with the bucket or just the back blade on the BB. It stops my 45 hp 4wd like it hit a wall. Hard as concrete. (I can pull with the front blade and teeth on the BB, and I do not have teeth on my bucket.)
When it is wet, its like Play-Doh. Sticks to everything.
That dirt in your pictures is just plain pretty!
When it is wet, its like Play-Doh. Sticks to everything.
That dirt in your pictures is just plain pretty!
patrick_g
Elite Member
If the berm is at all what I envision from your description, I would never try to box blade it going uphill. With gravity as your helper you may be able to use the FEL to good efffect from the top side, at lest till the berm is reshaped enough to let you safely drive over it going down hill with the box blade engaged. Your safety is more important than the efficiency of the task. Let the dirt wind up where it will till after the berm is way better shaped then clean up the scattered dirt.
It is good operating practice to ALWAYS have your hand on the joystick if the FEL is loaded and not laying on the ground or very nearly so. If the tractor is moving and the FEL is loaded your hand SHALL be on the joy stick. You have power steering don't you? You can steer with one hand.
At the first sign of trouble or things don't seem right or stable, get the tractor stopped and the loaded FEL on the ground. Then think about the situation and resume if safe. I have never rolled a tractor but have been in every 2 wheel situation possible several times each. Sometimes it scared the snot out of me. Sometimes the bucket was empty but full, empty, or in between, lowering it to the ground immediately helped stabilize the tractor and prevented a roll over. A heavy box blade can be nearly as bad if it is hiked up in the air to yield a better departure angle.
It is amazing how much stability the tractor looses when you turn the wheels more than just a little bit, especially when the bucket is heavily loaded. I have a cab and Kubota prohibits loading the rear wheels but I have 3 sets of wheel weights and carry a 1300 lb box blade for ballast when working with the FEL. Still the tractor has enough hydraulics to lift the rear in the air instead of picking up the bucket if the bucket is overloaded.
Oh, by the way... if the loaded bucket is in the air your hand should be permanently attached to the joystick with the thought ever present in your mind that you may have to INSTANTLY lower the bucket to the ground.
When working on a hill side go slower than you think is required and don't let familiarity lull you into a false sense of security. When you get a reasonable number of hours of experience then you can start to explore the edges of the safety envelope.
Like with us pilots,
there are bold tractor operators and
there are old tractor operators but
there are precious few OLD BOLD tractor operators.
Best to you, with care you should get 'er done safely.
Pat
It is good operating practice to ALWAYS have your hand on the joystick if the FEL is loaded and not laying on the ground or very nearly so. If the tractor is moving and the FEL is loaded your hand SHALL be on the joy stick. You have power steering don't you? You can steer with one hand.
At the first sign of trouble or things don't seem right or stable, get the tractor stopped and the loaded FEL on the ground. Then think about the situation and resume if safe. I have never rolled a tractor but have been in every 2 wheel situation possible several times each. Sometimes it scared the snot out of me. Sometimes the bucket was empty but full, empty, or in between, lowering it to the ground immediately helped stabilize the tractor and prevented a roll over. A heavy box blade can be nearly as bad if it is hiked up in the air to yield a better departure angle.
It is amazing how much stability the tractor looses when you turn the wheels more than just a little bit, especially when the bucket is heavily loaded. I have a cab and Kubota prohibits loading the rear wheels but I have 3 sets of wheel weights and carry a 1300 lb box blade for ballast when working with the FEL. Still the tractor has enough hydraulics to lift the rear in the air instead of picking up the bucket if the bucket is overloaded.
Oh, by the way... if the loaded bucket is in the air your hand should be permanently attached to the joystick with the thought ever present in your mind that you may have to INSTANTLY lower the bucket to the ground.
When working on a hill side go slower than you think is required and don't let familiarity lull you into a false sense of security. When you get a reasonable number of hours of experience then you can start to explore the edges of the safety envelope.
Like with us pilots,
there are bold tractor operators and
there are old tractor operators but
there are precious few OLD BOLD tractor operators.
Best to you, with care you should get 'er done safely.
Pat
Egon
Epic Contributor
When one has a very small tractor gravity may be the only thing usable Pat.
daTeacha
Veteran Member
When (not if, the time WILL come) you need to drop that bucket like Pat says, make sure you drop it all the way to the ground. Stopping a falling bucket suddenly is one of the best ways to stand your tractor on less than the designed number of wheels.
If you approach the thing from the bottom, keep your box blade or back blade in place. It can serve as a "Wheelie" bar of sorts. Don't rely on the hydraulics to save you from going over backwards, though. Set the links at their lowest holes so the box blade has minimum lift in the highest hydraulic position. As the front comes up in relation to the back, the box gets closer to the ground. If you get too high, the box should stop you from going higher well before you flip over. DO NOT lift a loaded bucket if you're this high in front. Roll the bucket forward and use the cutting edge like a big hoe and dig/drag the dirt down to where you can pick it up safely.
If you approach the thing from the bottom, keep your box blade or back blade in place. It can serve as a "Wheelie" bar of sorts. Don't rely on the hydraulics to save you from going over backwards, though. Set the links at their lowest holes so the box blade has minimum lift in the highest hydraulic position. As the front comes up in relation to the back, the box gets closer to the ground. If you get too high, the box should stop you from going higher well before you flip over. DO NOT lift a loaded bucket if you're this high in front. Roll the bucket forward and use the cutting edge like a big hoe and dig/drag the dirt down to where you can pick it up safely.
MossRoad
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JerryG said:
I guess I should have thought about a rear rollover and a conventional tractor. Attacking it from the downhill side going up, with a conventional tractor may be more inclination to a rear flipover than attacking it going downhill. However, attacking it going downhill, you pose the risk of getting stuck with your nose against the berm and not being able to back up the hill.
My tractor is not prone to a rear rollover and I really doubt anyone could roll it over backwards, as it is an articulated unit. More likely to get sideways on a hill and tip over sideways with mine.
In any event, pictures of the berm and measured angles would be most helpful.