Takata airbags

[3930dave]

The vehicle manufacturers spec the parts they need to build a vehicle, then they get bids from venders who build the parts. Lowest bid wins. Consumer looses.

Follow the Money is the reality...... the irony of this being a "safety" device seems to be lost on the regulators that control our markets.

Being forced to put more complex content into vehicles is another cost vector driving this mess.

Rgds, D.

 

[fried1765]

I'm not affected by these recalls, but as I was reading fried's posts I was thinking "Can't use the passenger seat, in a 5 seat vehicle. So that means it's OK to only pay 80% of your monthly car payments, until the repair is done ?"

I'd suspect fried's car is paid for, but there will be people affected who are still making payments. Loss of use seems pretty clear.

I remember the Pinto being on the roads. Technology has advanced since then, but business practices, not much.

Probably a better lesson for the industry would be having to supply free unaffected vehicles until repairs are done.

Rgds, D.

Yup!
Unfortunately, the Corolla was paid for when it left the dealership.
That said: It is now 9 FULL MONTHS since the passenger seat was declared by Toyota to be UNSAFE for use!
There is no apparent recourse!

 

[PILOON]

Yup!
Unfortunately, the Corolla was paid for when it left the dealership.
That said: It is now 9 FULL MONTHS since the passenger seat was declared by Toyota to be UNSAFE for use!
There is no apparent recourse!

Perhaps in future we should lease or buy using dealer finance, that way we could simply abandon the recalled car claiming defective and unsafe.
(would make for some fun lawyer time)

 

[PILOON]

If my passenger in an airbag recalled car was injured or killed would I be charged with manslaughter? or worse?

 

[chriswheeler]

Point I'm trying to get across is that we paid good money for a vehicle, the dealer and manufacture made a hefty profit from that sale, and placed the customers at risk. Great that the recalls were called for, hate to drive around with a hand-grenade in front of me in the center of the steering wheel, but that's what happened. The notice comes of the recall, and you quit using the vehicle you paid good money for, or reduce using it because of the hand-grenade in front of you and your passengers. The recalls are ending up being strung out for a long period of time, sometimes a year in the case of my truck. ( my jeep was 8 months ) Now the feds are passing the fine money to the auto manufactures ?? Think the fine money should go to the customers that were deprived of full use of the vehicles they bought. Am I thinking about this wrong ?? Auto makers already made a profit on your vehicle, now they get paid twice ?? The bad airbag inflators were put out the door with the manufactures knowing that they were defrauding the customers and putting them at risk, fines should be split among the customers affected is my opinion.
Chris

 

[Snowback]

There is a solution here. Our 2011 Toyota Sienna which we REALLY love has the recall and no end in sight for the bag availability.

Soooo.... With four kids and two adults it is next to impossible to go anywhere without the front passenger seat being used. If y'all read the fine print in most of those notices is says not to use the the passenger seat. For many this is not practical. Keep reading... The manufacturer will provide you with a loaner vehicle in most all cases.

Now get this - most all of the Siennas have the same problem, so the rental company could not source one of those for us. After hemming and hawing for weeks and weeks I finally dropped the hammer and gave Toyota Corporate an ultimatum. A couple days later the Enterprise Rental office in the local Toyota shop had a low mileage Chrysler Town and Country for us.

We have had it for over a month now and the Sienna is sitting nice and clean in our garage waiting for the part to be available. We start it up and get the mail once a week and have no fears of the Takata Grenade going off when someone is in the front seat in the event that someone runs into us.

Just be PERSISTENT and your will get your replacement vehicle. Also demand the same style and size. This was not your fault.

Good luck all! :thumbsup:

 

[3930dave]

Point I'm trying to get across is that we paid good money for a vehicle, the dealer and manufacture made a hefty profit from that sale, and placed the customers at risk. Great that the recalls were called for, hate to drive around with a hand-grenade in front of me in the center of the steering wheel, but that's what happened. The notice comes of the recall, and you quit using the vehicle you paid good money for, or reduce using it because of the hand-grenade in front of you and your passengers. The recalls are ending up being strung out for a long period of time, sometimes a year in the case of my truck. ( my jeep was 8 months ) Now the feds are passing the fine money to the auto manufactures ?? Think the fine money should go to the customers that were deprived of full use of the vehicles they bought. Am I thinking about this wrong ?? Auto makers already made a profit on your vehicle, now they get paid twice ?? The bad airbag inflators were put out the door with the manufactures knowing that they were defrauding the customers and putting them at risk, fines should be split among the customers affected is my opinion.
Chris

IMO, if the auto manufacturers want money, they can sue Takata directly. Obviously they'd prefer the govt do it - in a civil case, the auto manuf would be challenged about why their own QA/QC dept was (allegedly) asleep at the switch.

The people who put their trust in these manufacturers when they bought these vehicles were the ones who were placed in (known) harm's way, and in some cases seriously injured, maybe worse. That is where any compensation should flow to.

I don't totally absolve the govt either - they are the ones mandating that an explosive device be placed near my face.

Rgds, D.

 

[The Fred]

Knowing what we have learned about this saga, and that your vehicle was one in the recall, would you get them deactivated? I wouldn't, since the life-saving capacities are great and the shrapnel is hit-or-miss. A buddy of mine had his disconnected as it made him feel less safe. You all?

LOL wear a full faced helmet?

 

[fried1765]

LOL wear a full faced helmet?

Damx:
Gave my Navy flight helmet to a grandson lotta years ago!
Wore it in the T-34, T-28, and S-2
Shouda saved it for the Toyota!

 

[chriswheeler]

I'm somewhat surprised that some attorney has not turned this into one of those " class action lawsuits " yet. In this world of lawsuits for almost anything, the loss of use to COMSUMERS, not the government, is obvious. Time between the notices sent out for defective airbags, and the time the actual repairs are done has stretched out well beyond what one would expect for a safety defect. The loss of value, loss of full use, or in some cases, risks taken by the owners is a no brainer, almost a no contest in court. Consumers didn't get what they paid for. Products Safety commission charging a heavy fine to the manufactures and them pocketing the fine doesn't get it, consumers affected should be apportioned the fine baised on how long it took to get the repair/replacement done. Problem with all of this is the attorneys usually end up pocketing most of the settlements.
Chris

 

[fried1765]

I'm somewhat surprised that some attorney has not turned this into one of those " class action lawsuits " yet. In this world of lawsuits for almost anything, the loss of use to COMSUMERS, not the government, is obvious. Time between the notices sent out for defective airbags, and the time the actual repairs are done has stretched out well beyond what one would expect for a safety defect. The loss of value, loss of full use, or in some cases, risks taken by the owners is a no brainer, almost a no contest in court. Consumers didn't get what they paid for. Products Safety commission charging a heavy fine to the manufactures and them pocketing the fine doesn't get it, consumers affected should be apportioned the fine baised on how long it took to get the repair/replacement done. Problem with all of this is the attorneys usually end up pocketing most of the settlements.
Chris

Called the local Toyota dealer last week.
I am in Florida until late April, and the Corolla is not with me.
Advised service mgr. that I need a Toyota supplied rental, until my safety recall is completed.
Also advised him that about April 22nd I will be taking the rental to my summer residence in Canada.
Explained that I will be back in the USA in early June, but then back in Canada from July 20th until October 15th. This could get very interesting!
He stated that he would look into expediting the Takata replacement part, but also told me that they WILL give me a temp. replacement car.

 

[Coyote machine]

Here's the thing. According to what I read a while back, the Takata air bags were the lowest cost ones to be found on the market for airbags for the vehicles affected by the. Why? Because certain companies pressed for a lower cost per vehicle airbag and Takata beat out the other manufacturers of airbag components. The auto manufacturers KNEW about the defects and kept using the parts because their profits were more competitive in the market than those using higher priced airbag components. So it is clear complicity between the Auto Industry demanding that airbag manufacturers sell them a cheaper part, and the bag manufacturer designing a defective and cheaper component. There were/are internal documents, as is the case in most situations like this that show the straight line connection between auto manufacturers and Takata.
Maybe worse in the long run is there is NO oversight in the Auto Industry, other than them policing themselves, because the Auto Manufacturer's Association is made up of their own people, who would not shine a light on any fraud if their lives depended on it. You know, wolf/henhouse.
I found the article which explains the cause and effect of what has happened in the Takata debacle.
It blew my mind when I first read it months ago, but it is just more business as usual, and we as consumers ALL pay for it one way or another. Poor corporations; oh, I forgot, corporations are people, so be nice to them, they have our best interests at heart!:confused2::thumbdown:

Article: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/27/business/takata-airbag-recall-crisis.html?_r=0

 

[3930dave]

Here's the thing. According to what I read a while back, the Takata air bags were the lowest cost ones to be found on the market for airbags for the vehicles affected by the. Why? Because certain companies pressed for a lower cost per vehicle airbag and Takata beat out the other manufacturers of airbag components. The auto manufacturers KNEW about the defects and kept using the parts because their profits were more competitive in the market than those using higher priced airbag components. So it is clear complicity between the Auto Industry demanding that airbag manufacturers sell them a cheaper part, and the bag manufacturer designing a defective and cheaper component. There were/are internal documents, as is the case in most situations like this that show the straight line connection between auto manufacturers and Takata.
Maybe worse in the long run is there is NO oversight in the Auto Industry, other than them policing themselves, because the Auto Manufacturer's Association is made up of their own people, who would not shine a light on any fraud if their lives depended on it. You know, wolf/henhouse.
I found the article which explains the cause and effect of what has happened in the Takata debacle.
It blew my mind when I first read it months ago, but it is just more business as usual, and we as consumers ALL pay for it one way or another. Poor corporations; oh, I forgot, corporations are people, so be nice to them, they have our best interests at heart!:confused2::thumbdown:

Article: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/27/business/takata-airbag-recall-crisis.html?_r=0

With effectively nobody accountable, I'd prefer that they were a Factory Delete option.

Rgds, D.

 

[fried1765]

With effectively nobody accountable, I'd prefer that they were a Factory Delete option.

Rgds, D.

Oh .... the "gubment" (read EPA) would NEVER go for that!

 

[3930dave]

Oh .... the "gubment" (read EPA) would NEVER go for that!

Thinking NHTSA, but point taken....

It does seem that most of the time, as Control approaches 100%, Accountability approaches zero.

Rgds, D.

 

[Coyote machine]

Thinking NHTSA, but point taken....

It does seem that most of the time, as Control approaches 100%, Accountability approaches zero.

Rgds, D.

Yes, NHTSA.
And FWIW, my '98 Toyota Forerunner extended cab had a passenger airbag switch to turn it off; I believe it was for use with rear facing child seats so the baby would not be pushed into the seatback and killed by an airbag deploying, or in the case of a Takata branded airbag its exploding with razor sharp shrapnel meant to kill any witnesses to their crappy implementation and low bid workmanship!:mur:

 

[3930dave]

Even a lot of years ago, parts suppliers would just fold up - it was cheaper to do that, than continue to play Race To The Bottom with the car OEMs. That game started, as soon as the vehicle OEMs got rid of their parts divisions.

So, with the gubmints mandating more and more complex systems, into a game that already has low-bid priority, AND providing zero oversight, is it any wonder this happened ? It's all about optics/deniability - govts get to beat their chests about how they are "improving" safety, w/o any skin in the game. (Pun, in this case, semi-intended).

The SAE knew that properly designed and manufactured airbags had the potential to be lethal to short drivers, back in the 60's. Yet, they were still mandated, typically w/o that specific issue being addressed, or even communicated.

Given what the auto industry has to balance off, they do pretty well a lot of the time. Personally, I'd prefer a vehicle with less "content", but made with higher quality components - realizing that I'm a minority in today's market. Many sensors or systems on today's vehicles can act up or fail, with only inconvenient consequences. Putting explosive devices in front of people's faces, and beside their heads - pretty irresponsible to mandate that, w/o impartial oversight.

Govt meddling has created some of these problems. In real terms, the govts are more concerned about protecting the auto companies than the drivers who buy the products.

Rgds, D.

(On the equipment end of things, most of what you need is just the braking technology that was available beginning in the late 70's (properly maintained), and a set of climate appropriate modern tires that aren't worn out. Add to that an awake, non-impaired driver with basic driving skills (I know I'm asking a lot ) and probably 80% of accidents wouldn't happen. Replacing the previous with "bling" is a poor substitute, IMO).

 

[Coyote machine]

Even a lot of years ago, parts suppliers would just fold up - it was cheaper to do that, than continue to play Race To The Bottom with the car OEMs. That game started, as soon as the vehicle OEMs got rid of their parts divisions.

So, with the gubmints mandating more and more complex systems, into a game that already has low-bid priority, AND providing zero oversight, is it any wonder this happened ? It's all about optics/deniability - govts get to beat their chests about how they are "improving" safety, w/o any skin in the game. (Pun, in this case, semi-intended).

The SAE knew that properly designed and manufactured airbags had the potential to be lethal to short drivers, back in the 60's. Yet, they were still mandated, typically w/o that specific issue being addressed, or even communicated.

Given what the auto industry has to balance off, they do pretty well a lot of the time. Personally, I'd prefer a vehicle with less "content", but made with higher quality components - realizing that I'm a minority in today's market. Many sensors or systems on today's vehicles can act up or fail, with only inconvenient consequences. Putting explosive devices in front of people's faces, and beside their heads - pretty irresponsible to mandate that, w/o impartial oversight.

Govt meddling has created some of these problems. In real terms, the govts are more concerned about protecting the auto companies than the drivers who buy the products.

Rgds, D.

(On the equipment end of things, most of what you need is just the braking technology that was available beginning in the late 70's (properly maintained), and a set of climate appropriate modern tires that aren't worn out. Add to that an awake, non-impaired driver with basic driving skills (I know I'm asking a lot ) and probably 80% of accidents wouldn't happen. Replacing the previous with "bling" is a poor substitute, IMO).

Really good points! And man does it scare the crap out of me that now they're rolling out the AI cars/driverless version 1.0 sooner than later. Talk about a disaster waiting to happen.
I can see where having the machine make all the decisions is way better than having today's distracted drivers being completely oblivious to what's happening around them, in THEORY. BUT wait until some of the real life situations start popping up and the 'puter is further hampered by some clown who puts a bumper sticker over the sensor's eye so their ride will be cooler than Joe Bob's ride.

Or, like the Takata cheapest part gets the prize, and thus bolted onto a bazillion cars, the sensors start throwing bad data at the 'puter and it screws the pooch- read occupants of the vehicle, with for instance, all airbags deploying at once for no reason.

When I owned and ran my foreign auto repair and sales facility my basic bottom line premise is a car should stop effectively before it should go anywhere. With that in mind we maintained our customer's cars with great care toward safety first, then everything else last. So braking systems, and other safety devices, then electrical and engine cooling systems, etc.

I completely agree that all the BS bolted to the car of 1017 is largely a way to jack up the price point, and most of it is nearly, if not totally extraneous to the basic function of the vehicle.

KISS, keep it simple stupid, applies to cars for the most part, but I defy anyone to find a car built that way anymore.
The government's mandating all kinds of safety and imposing it on us drivers with no accountability, little to no oversight of the auto industry, etc. is another aspect of the out of control, not likely to be remedied situation; similar in many ways to the healthcare/insurance industry in America today.

There is no easy solution, since the intertwined profit motive driven auto industry and their sub-contracted suppliers and ultimately the 'jonesing' for their latest technology 'fix' general public all play the game, either by choice or by chance.

It gives new meaning to 'Big Brother and the Holding Company'.

Watch out drivers of today and near future cars - an unprecedented nightmare is headed your way, and it's completely out of control of the fool behind the wheel!:confused3:

 

[ultrarunner]

I received a recall notice from Toyota for the bags back in June.
The notice warns against using the passenger seat.
Still WAITING for the dealer to notify me that the bags are available.
Have inquired twice!

Same here with 2011 Toyota Corolla and 2002 BMW 325iT

The BMW has been years on the recall list.

There was a news story about a lady here that transports seniors for her church with a Toyota Sienna... she got Toyota to pay for her rental after the story hit last year...

Another story is the owner left the car at Toyota and said to call when it was safe to drive... the warranty is extended for the time out of service on warranty claims... this really has the potential to snowball...

 

[Streetcar]

The law says that ignorance is not an excuse.

If someone takes down a stop sign or a no parking and you inadvertently break the law you are still held liable.
Happened to me and Judge still fined me.

OK, it was a no parking violation where the sign was missing but I still had to pay. { was even more frustrating as I had even deposited coins in the closest meter thinking that the cars were simply miss aligned with the meters)

The ruling was "Ignorance is not and excuse to break a law", I later confirmed that with other legal professionals.
So we had better have maps for all the world's stop signs to be sure as to stop for all the missing ones.

I am surprised the judge fined you, in my case the judge threw out ticket as street was not properly marked