TC 40D PTO Generator - Disappointing

[daTeacha]

FWIW, when I was in the local TSC store a few weeks ago they had a Generac unit rated at 15KW constant with a 22KW peak priced at $2200. That seems pretty reasonable to me.

My little 4KW unit was an auction item that cost me $25, but I feel like I more or less stole that one. It's a Winco, complete with the automatic circuitry to self start and separate it from the power line while it's running.

 

[djradz]

I've not changed the filter because it doesn't look any more dirty than the day I brought the tractor home, but I'll change it none the less. My experience with other pieces of equipment and automobiles (some which go 100 to 200K miles without change) led me to believe if it looks clean, it is.

Now that I know what the friction disk is, I doubt that is it. The drop in generator frequency happens very quickly as load is added, and (now here's the key) if I reduce the load, it returns to all OK. On my tractor, what you all describe is very stiff and that often, to move it only a little bit, I must either tap it, or brace my hand against the dash so my movement of it is more measured. I was hoping the disk had something to do with the governor performance, not the throttle setting. On my old Satoh, it had a setting or two that affected how the governor performed. Too sensitive a setting caused it to "hunt" a little but made it very responsive. Too course a setting caused it to not respond until a large variation occurred. I thought maybe the 40D had something similar, but it wasn't obvious by just looking at it. I guess not.

Wally, I have no concerns about stressing the engine on the 40D or any other tractor with a PTO generator unless something is overloaded. I believe several of almost the same kind of engines are used in the larger standalone generators anyway. John Deere even makes generators using some of their engines. These diesels are made to run and run and run. Using the tractor does put the transmission in the middle of things, but whether hydro or gear, me belief is both are well lubricated, cooled, and made to work. I remember years ago, by uncle, a potato farmer in the "thumb" of Michigan, use to set one of his old IH's back by either his pond or stream with a PTO-driven pump hooked up and irrigate those potatoes day and night for several days, often several times a summer. I'm not worried!

 

[Soundguy]

The reason you change a fuel filter as 'scheduled maintenance' and not when 'it finally starves the engine down and leaves you stranded'.. is uh.. just that reason. I don't know about you.. but when i'm mowing.. i can be a loooooooong way from my barn.. as in.. climb up on the roof of the tractor and get some cell phone signal, and call a friend with a 4wd truck and ask them to come get you..or bring you a fuel filter...

That's not where i want to find out that i only had 6.5 hours left on my fuel filter.. and not the 7.5 i needed to actually get back home.

( been there.. done that.... )

As to your problem.. sounds like either the governor is not responsive.. or the engine is so loaded that the governor cannot make up for the extra load...

Soundguy

 

[SpringHollow]

We sell generators. PTO and portable gas generators are fine for non-sensitive loads such as hot water heaters, electric heat, etc. However, lots of todays equipment is pretty sensitive to the quality of the sine wave coming out of the generator. If you put a scope on many of these generators you will be amazed at how little it looks like a sine wave and how many spikes, etc. come through. Many of our customers have previously lost compressor driven equipment like refrigerators/freezers and even things like VCRs from using generators such as these. That is why they came to us. They tell us those cheap genererators were the most expensive generator they could have bought by the time they paid to replace the damaged equipment.

Everyone looks at the spec for voltage - it is easy to provide the right voltage. What is important is the Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) which is a measure of the quality of the sine wave. THD should be less than 10%. Even many of the cheap standby generators do not provide clean power. One local electrician tells me he loves power outages because he will get about a dozen calls to replace the variable frequency drives on high efficiency furnaces from customers using the inexpensive standby generators sold by practically everyone.

For what it is worth.

Ken

 

[jinman]

Duane, I was going to be "really clever" and tell you where you can see the governor assembly using New Holland's parts look-up. Well...I'm not feeling so clever because New Holland did not bother to put the governor assembly with it's engine diagrams. The timing cover is there, but nothing from the inside is shown or listed. If you will PM me with your personal email, I will see to it that you get an illustration, but I won't post it here.

For slow governor response, the repair manual does say that one of the possibilities is that the governor could be dirty. My guess is that your governor is just fine. If the manual doesn't list some actual numbers, I'd say they aren't too "proud" of their governor response.

 

[Soundguy]

Last time I saw really bad power output on a scope was a real old generator head.. or a cheap inverter.

The sine wave, on a scope.. from my northern genny, is as good or better than my utility line. in fact.. using a time based graphing meter.. I can detect more fluctuations on my utility than on pto gennied power...

This is a real subjective subject... Hard to make blanket statements without knowing and testing each and every unit type.

Radio and older tv especially will be the most dependent on correct frequency.(colorburst will be effected). If you can get a clean pic or clean audio.. your genny is probably doing ok.

If the 'sensitive' electronics you refer to are using switching (triac) based power supplies, and are converting to a dc output.. don't worry too much about it. Slight over voltage and pretty decent under voltage and freq variance doesn't make much difference to switching supplies.. Most computers use switching supplies. The reason they are so tolerant deals with the on-time slice they are taking fromt he sine wave.

A while back I ran a test with a variac and had a pc plugged in.. I had to dip the voltage to 90v to get the supply to drop out. And took it up to 135 with no problems.

Want good emi/rfi filtering.. buy a 9$ power strip at costco. Want even more filtering.. get a line conditioner or a 1:1 iso xformer...

for what it's worth... (grin)

Soundguy

We sell generators. PTO and portable gas generators are fine for non-sensitive loads such as hot water heaters, electric heat, etc. However, lots of todays equipment is pretty sensitive to the quality of the sine wave coming out of the generator. If you put a scope on many of these generators you will be amazed at how little it looks like a sine wave and how many spikes, etc. come through. Many of our customers have previously lost compressor driven equipment like refrigerators/freezers and even things like VCRs from using generators such as these. That is why they came to us. They tell us those cheap genererators were the most expensive generator they could have bought by the time they paid to replace the damaged equipment.

Everyone looks at the spec for voltage - it is easy to provide the right voltage. What is important is the Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) which is a measure of the quality of the sine wave. THD should be less than 10%. Even many of the cheap standby generators do not provide clean power. One local electrician tells me he loves power outages because he will get about a dozen calls to replace the variable frequency drives on high efficiency furnaces from customers using the inexpensive standby generators sold by practically everyone.

For what it is worth.

Ken

 

[SpringHollow]

I did say "many", not "all". I am not referring to frequency or voltage - on most generators, those are easy to control. We routinely scope people's generators and often see things that look more like square waves with all kinds of shoulders and humps - not even close to a sine wave (I should take a picture of one some time). That type of wave can cause havoc with some devices - some compressors seem to be vulnerable, for example. It was because we saw things like this that and the resulting damage that we decided to sell high quality generators for our customers. I do not know of anyone who has had any problems with a high quality generator that was operating correctly and many people get away with the lower quality generators but not all.

I am just warning people to look closely at what they are buying since most people just look at the frequency and voltage specifications which all but the worst generators can meet.

Ken

 

[djradz]

Thanks for the warning Ken, but the quality of the sign wave from my generator is top notch. In years past, I've used/borrowed three other generators and mine is better than all three. THD, when moderately to heavily loaded is still in the 5% range and the waveform is still almost a perfect sine, although when loaded up as when I experienced problems, it merely had a lower RMS value and reduced frequency. Looks like I need to do the testing. Maybe this weekend.

Soundguy, I'm not one to operate in the "don't touch it unless it's broke" mode when it comes to filter changes, especially if I can't see inside to the element. That said, I do keep and eye on it and have had other tractor filters get dirty in the past, so I thought I knew what to look for. Once, a year or two ago, there was a couple of parafin globs settled in the bottom of the bowl, but they eventually disolved and went away. There is absolutely NO evidence of any dirt, sediment buildup, coating, etc on the filter, so I figure it is clean. The bowl and filter look brand new! If there was some slime, particles or crud of some sort, I'd be much more suspicious. I'll be changing it anyway, but when you can see something so clearly, and it looks so very clean, I just always thought it was. Maybe I've learned one more thing here thanks to TBN!

 

[George2615]

In your first post you mention the cabling leaves a bit to be desired. What size cable are you using to connect the gen. to the house panel? For 50A you should be using at least 8 gauge, preferably 6 gauge. You didn't trip the 50A breaker but if using 10 gauge wire, it's not enough. The voltage and frequency of the gen. should be regulated and steady at a predetermined RPM. Proper size cabling, connections and a good ground connection are a must as well as the right RPM.

 

[IH3444]

Ksimolo has hit it on the head, the generator I purchased was due to the fact that it was a very high quality one with less than 2% THD. It was rated for TVs, and computers. The only reason I bought it was that it was marked down to the same price as the "regular" generators. I guess they couldn't move it at such a higher price, with the same 10,000watt less expensive twin sitting next to it. Jinman is right on the money also about your governor's sensitivity. I don't think that our tractor governors are as sensitive, and throttle correcting as quickly as the one's coupled to the stand alone generators.....this would result in wider swings in the voltage. If you had another source for winter heat, such as a wood or coal stove to heat, then I think that to just use the PTO generator for appliances, lights, even the TV would be OK, due to the fact that there would never be a big load placed on the tractor governor. I noticed that even with my 10K unit. It just hummms along with out even breathing hard. Run an extension cord over to the neighbors to power up there "walk in" side by side refridgerator, and then you can tell a load is being placed on it by the slight rpm drop, and the throttle is being pulled open b the governor. Still very glad I've got it, and "Jenny" has gotten me through a few extended time whn the main power was off.

 

[AndyMA]

I tried to do some load calculations, but obviously do not have any idea of your heat load. I would say that I believe you overloaded the generator (not the PTO hp). The combination of those loads and their cycling on and off with peak start loads requies much more generator than you have. A/C loads tend to cycle on and off. The resistive heat loads are pretty much continuous and I believe place too much of a bias on the generator to let it handle all the cycled loads. I think you were probably running beyond the breaker capacity (at least during peak loading). The breaker which is a heat operated device will take longer to trip (ie handle an overload) at lower temps as some of its heat is dissipiated into the atmosphere. I would hook up all the loads again and put the current meter on the load. You may be suprised. I had a 5500 watt generator for years and their was no way I could run even close to half your load. BTW, what is the rated capacity fo your generator vers the peak load? Also did you have the load evenly spread between the 2 120 v legs?

Andy

 

[Soundguy]

Perhaps an older brush type design with very poor regulation and filtering would throw bad wave forms. Most of the brushless designs i see.. even the ones with passive ( capactivie ) regulation put out some pretty pure sign untill you mash them against the wall... even then.. at least the few I've tested.. stay withi spec tolerance.

Soundguy

I did say "many", not "all". I am not referring to frequency or voltage - on most generators, those are easy to control. We routinely scope people's generators and often see things that look more like square waves with all kinds of shoulders and humps - not even close to a sine wave (I should take a picture of one some time). That type of wave can cause havoc with some devices - some compressors seem to be vulnerable, for example. It was because we saw things like this that and the resulting damage that we decided to sell high quality generators for our customers. I do not know of anyone who has had any problems with a high quality generator that was operating correctly and many people get away with the lower quality generators but not all.

I am just warning people to look closely at what they are buying since most people just look at the frequency and voltage specifications which all but the worst generators can meet.

Ken

 

[Soundguy]

Most of my deisels have opaque elements.. so I just get in the habit of servicing them when i do oil changes. However.. the last time i did service my yanmar.. it's filter 'looked' fine.. looked clean. however I discovered the element was saturated with water, and had fine particulates embedded in the element. None of this was visible to the eye. Fuel flowed from that line 2x to 3x better after the new paper filter was installed.

Not saying yours is that way... just saying that after a close call, and a 'stranded' session.. I don't scrimp on a 13$ fuel filter every year.

Soundguy

Thanks for the warning Ken, but the quality of the sign wave from my generator is top notch. In years past, I've used/borrowed three other generators and mine is better than all three. THD, when moderately to heavily loaded is still in the 5% range and the waveform is still almost a perfect sine, although when loaded up as when I experienced problems, it merely had a lower RMS value and reduced frequency. Looks like I need to do the testing. Maybe this weekend.

Soundguy, I'm not one to operate in the "don't touch it unless it's broke" mode when it comes to filter changes, especially if I can't see inside to the element. That said, I do keep and eye on it and have had other tractor filters get dirty in the past, so I thought I knew what to look for. Once, a year or two ago, there was a couple of parafin globs settled in the bottom of the bowl, but they eventually disolved and went away. There is absolutely NO evidence of any dirt, sediment buildup, coating, etc on the filter, so I figure it is clean. The bowl and filter look brand new! If there was some slime, particles or crud of some sort, I'd be much more suspicious. I'll be changing it anyway, but when you can see something so clearly, and it looks so very clean, I just always thought it was. Maybe I've learned one more thing here thanks to TBN!

 

[Soundguy]

One thing.. a small 3600 rpm gas genny or even 1800 rpm job.. the engine was less rotational mass to spin up.. so it's gov may correct faster. A diesel may have much more mass to spin up.. though.. on the other hand.. if there is more rotational mass.. then loads shouldn't hit it as hard either..

I think the ideal situation is to have about 25-30% more genny than you need.. and 2x the minimum pto hp needed for 'trouble free' operation.

Soundguy

Ksimolo has hit it on the head, the generator I purchased was due to the fact that it was a very high quality one with less than 2% THD. It was rated for TVs, and computers. The only reason I bought it was that it was marked down to the same price as the "regular" generators. I guess they couldn't move it at such a higher price, with the same 10,000watt less expensive twin sitting next to it. Jinman is right on the money also about your governor's sensitivity. I don't think that our tractor governors are as sensitive, and throttle correcting as quickly as the one's coupled to the stand alone generators.....this would result in wider swings in the voltage. If you had another source for winter heat, such as a wood or coal stove to heat, then I think that to just use the PTO generator for appliances, lights, even the TV would be OK, due to the fact that there would never be a big load placed on the tractor governor. I noticed that even with my 10K unit. It just hummms along with out even breathing hard. Run an extension cord over to the neighbors to power up there "walk in" side by side refridgerator, and then you can tell a load is being placed on it by the slight rpm drop, and the throttle is being pulled open b the governor. Still very glad I've got it, and "Jenny" has gotten me through a few extended time whn the main power was off.

 

[Soundguy]

Good point.. motor start loads can be 2x rated power.. and even 3x if an older or particularly ineficient unit..

Soundguy

I tried to do some load calculations, but obviously do not have any idea of your heat load. I would say that I believe you overloaded the generator (not the PTO hp). The combination of those loads and their cycling on and off with peak start loads requies much more generator than you have. A/C loads tend to cycle on and off. The resistive heat loads are pretty much continuous and I believe place too much of a bias on the generator to let it handle all the cycled loads. I think you were probably running beyond the breaker capacity (at least during peak loading). The breaker which is a heat operated device will take longer to trip (ie handle an overload) at lower temps as some of its heat is dissipiated into the atmosphere. I would hook up all the loads again and put the current meter on the load. You may be suprised. I had a 5500 watt generator for years and their was no way I could run even close to half your load. BTW, what is the rated capacity fo your generator vers the peak load? Also did you have the load evenly spread between the 2 120 v legs?

Andy

 

[IH3444]

CorrectO Soundguy, they say to add up all the wattage you are going to use, then buy a gernerator with twice that capacity. You should only tax the jenny 50% of what it's output is. This allows startup motor surges to be absorbed.

 

[djradz]

Andy, thanks for attempting to analyze this, but as you say, you really don't have enough information, nor do I at this point. I hear what you are saying about overloading the generator, but I'm somewhat doubtful because I would have thought the first indication was a voltage drop or collapse of the waveform, not a drop in generator frequency.

I do remember one other thing that occured, and that was what I have to call a scraping or vibrating sound coming from the generator when the microwave was used along with everything else. Makes me wonder if the generator was "chattering" which I've heard is an indication of very poorly balanced load between the two 120v legs. Not that this should have slowed the frequency, but maybe again, indicating I had if heavily loaded, and not very balanced. More testing needed!!!

 

[Soundguy]

Freq drop will be based on rpm drop.. I.e. if your genny is dropping freq.. then the pto rpm is dropping.

PTO rpm will drop as the load goes up, if the governor is not compensating fast enough.. or cannot compensate.

I think this is all pointing back to a tractor issue.. not a generator issue.

Not many other ways to mess with the freq on that fixed pole genny that pretty much solely relies on input rpm to determine output freq.

Soundguy

 

[SteveInMD]

Could it be that the governor is just not designed to be precise enough for this application?

 

[Soundguy]

Hmm.. I doubt it.. but then.. i don't own a TC series machine.

My 1975 ford 5000 and my 2002 NH 7610s keep my 12.5kw pto gen rock solid. If I listen real close, i can hear the 5000's engine power up when I throw a big motor start load on her... The 8n will laod up.. but handles the load ok. The 7610s.. never even blinks..not a hair of change in engine sound or rpm.. notheing.. no smoke puf.. nada... course.. she don't blink pulling a 15' mower into a swath of 2-3' tall weeds either.. so i think the 12kw pto gen aint much of a load to her..

Soundguy

Soundguy