Test challenge, face off & bet - Anyone game?

755inNY · Jul 3, 2004

But, again, my quarrel is with misrepresenting something like the Craftsman GT5000 as a “garden tractor” not the relative quality of the two.


Libertine,

After reading all of the posts to date, the statement above from one of your posts is what it all comes down to. You are out to prove the Craftsman GT5000, and other similar brands, are not "real" garden tractors by "your" definition and because of "your" definition of a garden tractor, you feel that Sears, in particular, is deceiving the buying public by marketing the GT5000 as a garden tractor. Wow!

If you want to challenge that the GT5000 can't do what Sears claims it can, that might be a worthwhile discussion. But it is absurd to argue that the capabilities of the GT5000 does not meet "your" definition of a garden tractor and then attempt to prove that position by creating a silly contest between the GT5000 and a tractor that does meet "your" definition.

In the world of residential "tractors" there are no precise definitions. The differences between what are called riding lawn mowers, lawn tractors, yard tractors and garden tractors are based loosely on size, weight, HP and the ability to add powered attachments. If you have a problem with how Sears, and other brands, are marketing their "Garden Tractors", I suggest you propose your wager to them. When they do not respond, call the local media and let them know your concerns. They love human interest stories that expose deceptive consumer practices by large corporations. I can just picture you on the local news program, standing in a field next to your little BCS, with all the necessary attachments for the contest layed out in front of you, waiting for the challenged to show up. Of course they won't and the news reporter will claim that it is because they know they will lose. Then, they will have you demonstrate some of the tasks of the contest just to show that your "garden tractor" is up to the challenge. Please post pictures on this forum when that happens.

How about if we just reduce it down to "my" definition of a tractor and I will challenge your BCS "tractor" to my JD 4310 "real" tractor. I'll have that pile of gravel moved using my FEL attachment before you can get 1/4 way through the pile shoveling the gravel into your little cart.

Jeff

Libertine · Jul 3, 2004

Henro:

As an example of what I am trying to get across, take tilling. My guess is that the GT5000 might till an area faster than the BCS 2-wheeler, but maybe on closer look, the BCS might actually turn the soil twice as deep. So maybe it would take 2 (or 3) passes by the GT5000 to produce the same quality job. So faster would really be slower... 

Bingo. It's the end result that matters. Even in mowing, the BCS finish mower uses retractable cutters (sort of like horizontal flails) which probably strike harder and are certainly easier to keep sharpened. Same set-up as an old 5' Ford brush hog I was using yesterday with my TC40. The GT5000 uses fixed blades, just like a regular lawn mower.

Your scale of equipment, Henro, is reasonable enough. And I guess you can argue over semantics. But, I would argue that the BCS is in fact a garden tractor, i.e. a small multi-purpose tractor that can be used for many tasks around a small homestead or property inlcuding gardening, mowing, mulching, etc. at a much lower cost than a CUT. The fact that a machine can, through stretch, be used for something else doesn't make it that something else. I suppose I could hook up a tiny plow to my self propelled Snapper lawn mower and call it a garden tractor. But its really a lawn mower. Same as the Craftsman GT5000 is really a riding lawn mower. The fact it has been jury rigged up to do some other tasks doesn't make it something else.

If people are going to communicate it behooves us to use word symbols in a consistent, agreed upon meaning. The word symbol "tractor" denotes a rather specific type of equipment. Even the old Fordson tractors of 80+ years ago were able to function as a universal power source for much of the implements of the time (with their belt pullies). A UT, CUT, subCUT and the 2 wheel BCS (and old Gravelies, etc.) fall into this definition of a tractor as a self propelled, universal power source. You can even get a PTO adapter for the BCS which will turn it into a 1 3/8" splined drive to run (or power) a regular CUT implement (of course, the HP would be a bit lite for many applications). The Craftsman GT5000 does not, which is why I don't believe it could win a straight up contest with a "real" garden tractor. I am omitting any issue of the longevity and quality between the two. If the GT5000 were a "real" tractor, instead of a glorified riding lawn mower, it should, given its greater HP and weight, win hands down. I don't mean to be quoting myself, but I made a comment in a previous post - There's nothing wrong with being a lawn mower. My objection is to a lawn mower pretending to be something else (or words to that effect)

JEH

Inspector507 · Jul 3, 2004

Ok................tell ya what, I'm going to go out and buy a BCS and a GT5000 and work on your list of chores.
I'm going to pay $2300 for the GT5000 and have the first item on your challenge list done in 30 mins or so
 1) mows 1/2 acre level ground 
And then maybe for giggles I'll try item number 2 on your list while I'm at it. Maybe 45 more mins.
 2) mows 1/2 acre rough & hilly ground 

Then I'm going to go get the BCS for $2-3000, your quoted price. I'm going to tackle item number one.......ohhh can't, didn't fork out the extra $1000 for a mower. So I guess I can't try item number 2 either.

BTW the GT5000 comes WITH mower and SEAT for $2300. The BCS seat is another $425??
You're comparing these 2 like a string trimmer to a lawn mower. Completely different in their approach, both of which will get the job done, depending on money and time.
Personally I think this thread should be closed. I originally saw it as a slam against the poor guy who could only afford the $2300 GT5000. Now I see it as Mines better than yours
Oh yeah, I forgot. Wanna put your garden tractor up against my, what has been referred to here once as a "toy tractor"? I use it to mow and till and a lot of those other things. It's only an 18 HP TC18??

I just don't see the sense of any of this post continuing.

Libertine · Jul 3, 2004

Inspector507:

I originally saw it as a slam against the poor guy who could only afford the $2300 GT5000. Now I see it as Mines better than yours
Oh yeah, I forgot. Wanna put your garden tractor up against my, what has been referred to here once as a "toy tractor"? I use it to mow and till and a lot of those other things. It's only an 18 HP TC18?? 

I apologize if you missed the intent of this.
1) It was NEVER intended as a slam against someone with less money to spend. If anything, it was to offer an alternative to someone with a smaller property to get a high quality, versitile piece of equipment for much less money that would do most of what a larger tractor would only on a smaller scale. The price of a 2 wheeler is MUCH closer to a GT5000 than it is to a TC18 (or BX1500).
2) Your TC18 is hardly a "toy" tractor. It is a real tractor that can do most of what a larger CUT can do, just on a smaller scale.
3) If anything, this thread and the other one on 2 wheelers offers exposure to the person with less money who needs a high quality, lifetime piece of equipment and can't afford (or justify) the cost of a CUT or subCUT. The person who buys a couple riding lawn mowers, a chipper or two, a tiller, etc. over a period of years will spend more in the long run. It's an educational effort, Inspector507. Sorry you don't see it that way.

JEH

Ozarker · Jul 3, 2004

( Libertine,

After reading all of the posts to date, the statement above from one of your posts is what it all comes down to. You are out to prove the Craftsman GT5000, and other similar brands, are not "real" garden tractors by "your" definition and because of "your" definition of a garden tractor, you feel that Sears, in particular, is deceiving the buying public by marketing the GT5000 as a garden tractor. Wow! )

You have figured Libertine out. Next he'll be telling us that a CUT isn't a "real" tractor because it doesn't have the HP to make round bales like a "real" tractor can.

755inNY · Jul 3, 2004

If anything, this thread and the other one on 2 wheelers offers exposure to the person with less money who needs a high quality, lifetime piece of equipment and can't afford (or justify) the cost of a CUT or subCUT. The person who buys a couple riding lawn mowers, a chipper or two, a tiller, etc. over a period of years will spend more in the long run. It's an educational effort, Inspector507. Sorry you don't see it that way. 

I think Inspector507 and myself would both "see it that way" if your focus was not on proving the GT5000 is not a "garden tractor" as Sears claims. Your other post on two wheel tractors is oriented toward informing members of an alternate type of tractor and hit the mark. This post does not do that at all. I ask you to re-read through your original post and all of your responses in this thread. If your mind is open as you claim, I think you will see your message is more focused on the definition of a garden tractor than it is on informing the reader about two wheel tractors.

Jeff

P.S. Oh by the way, I think you did the members a great service by bringing the two wheel tractor into the discussion. I was not that aware of them and I'm sure other members weren't as well.

Libertine · Jul 4, 2004

755inNY:

I ask you to re-read through your original post , , ,

I did. Why don't you reread it.

In the time I have visited TBN, I have never seen discussion of the 2 wheel tractor as an alternative. Instead, I have seen discussions of lawn mower wanna be tractors - most recently in a thread by DanielNY in this forum. I have posted occasionally suggesting the 2 wheel tractor as an alternative for someone needing a serious, lifetime peice of equipment to do the various things people do around a small homestead or property but who may not want/have/need to spend the much greater cost of a CUT or subCUT. If I may quote myself:

Frankly, people buy equipment to do work. New people visit TBN to get advice on buying equipment. Instead of uneducated "opinions" wouldn't it be interesting to actually TEST two types of equipment, side by side, doing the same work? We could take pics and post the results on TBN. I think lots of folks would find that interesting, don't you?

All that remains is to find someone who thinks the Craftsman GT5000 will "work" better than a 2 wheel BCS 850 to take me up on the bet. We agree on a list of tasks for which this type of equipment is commonly used (my list was a suggestion, but am certainly willing to consider others), find a mutually agreeable spot and do it. Shouldn't be too difficult, you think? 

Instead of a responsible response, I get ignorant comments about how the GT5000 really isn't used, or intended, as a garden tractor (even though they're sold that way and many members recommend them that way to newbies), or arguments over the fact a BCS costs a little more, while ignoring the fact of the greater weight and HP of the GT5000. One poster even touted it's "cup holder." Have you ever visited power shows (they must have them in your area)? A few years ago, I recall seeing a big lumbering steam traction engine, an old Fordson and other equipment plowing a field. My vision in starting this thread was a contest between two pieces of small equipment doing tasks that most of us do around the property. I'm willing to put money on it that the 2 wheeler is a more competent tractor.

Instead of people wanting to find out the truth, they want to "argue" about it, or, make up excuses, not respond to the original post, etc. Of course, they are, wittingly or otherwise, agreeing with the point I was trying to make, to wit: that the 2 wheel tractor is a viable alternative to other low cost, wanna be tractors/equipment for people needing a high quality, low cost tractor to do the various jobs that are done around the small homestead/property. That was the point.

JEH

755inNY · Jul 4, 2004

Libertine,

I did re-read it before I made my last post.

I apologize for the long post, but below are direct quotes from your posts on this thread. Your point is well made in the words you wrote and the tone of your message. You have a definition of a "garden tractor" that you feel tractors, such as the GT5000, don't meet and you are out to prove that point.

I'm curious, exactly where did you get you definition of a "garden tractor"? Is it a universally supported definition? Does it come out of a dictionary, government standard, or industry standard?

 #453725 - 06/30/04 08:14 AM
Ken, are you suggesting we add a category:
8) Riding along looking sexy pretending you have a "real" tractor?

#454066 - 06/30/04 06:52 PM
Sears sells the GT5000 as a garden tractor. It advertises all the wonderful implements you can get with it, including, and I quote from their literature, “ground engaging” implements. They try to sell it as a multipurpose tractor. It’s a con to convince people they’re getting something they’re not.

Different posters recommended this or that “garden tractor”. All bull. If people had said to DanielNY “well, Daniel, you’re really not getting a garden tractor, you’re actually getting a lawn mower that will do couple of other things, sort of” we wouldn’t be having this conversation and I never would have started this thread or made the bet.

I don’t doubt that a GT5000 is a decent enough riding lawn mower

But, again, my quarrel is with misrepresenting something like the Craftsman GT5000 as a “garden tractor” not the relative quality of the two.

In your post, you admit, in effect, that equipment like the GT5000 is really not an all-purpose garden tractor. That, of course, is my point. If anyone thinks it is, let them take me up on my bet and we’ll go see how well a lawn mower can do against an all purpose garden tractor (a real one, that it).

#454330 - 07/01/04 07:10 AM
That was my whole point of starting this. The GT5000 is really a lawn mower, but it is sold by Sears, and promoted by some TBNers as a "garden tractor".

#455051 - 07/02/04 07:55 AM
If you said the Craftsman GT5000 is a great riding lawn mower I wouldn't agrue about it. In fact we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

#455627 - 07/03/04 06:49 AM
There's nothing wrong with being a lawn mower, my objection is to a lawn mower pretending to be a garden tractor.

However, it appears no one is willing to bet on the competency of a lawn mower pretending to be a garden tractor.

#455679 - 07/03/04 08:28 AM
I suppose I could hook up a tiny plow to my self propelled Snapper lawn mower and call it a garden tractor. But its really a lawn mower. Same as the Craftsman GT5000 is really a riding lawn mower. The fact it has been jury rigged up to do some other tasks doesn't make it something else.

If the GT5000 were a "real" tractor, instead of a glorified riding lawn mower, it should, given its greater HP and weight, win hands down.

Ozarker · Jul 4, 2004

You seem to have some sort of emotional involvement in this quest. Is it just the Sears Lawn Tractor that you dislike or do you have the same disdain for the Lawn Tractors advertised by others such as Snapper, Poulan, Yardman, MTD, and John Deere?

I think the real problem is that you have no clue what the term "tractor" actually means. I'll try to help:

Tractor: From Latin tractus, past participle of trahere, to draw.

A vehicle having a powerful gasoline or diesel motor and usually large, heavily treaded rear tires, used especially for pulling farm implements or machinery.

A truck having a cab and no body, used for pulling large vehicles such as vans or trailers.

Something that pulls or draws.

a. An airplane propeller mounted in front of the supporting surfaces. b. An airplane having such a propeller.

A toothed mechanism that automatically advances perforated continuous-form paper through a computer printer. 

So there it is. Anything that is designed to pull or draw other equipment or implements is a tractor. You don't get to redefine what a tractor is just because you feel like it or have some emotional connection to a tractor that you like.

Lawn Tractors are called Lawn Tractors because they are primarily designed to do the necessary work to care for lawns..........and that often requires pulling other implements. They are also capable of pulling ground engaging implements to do garden work. So they are correctly classified as tractors. It doesn't really matter if you like that or not. It is a good piece of equipment that does what it is advertised to do and has a satisfied customer base of thousands if not millions.

( One poster even touted it's "cup holder." )

Yes I did. What exactly is your objection to the cup holder? Is part of your position that it really isn't a tractor unless you are miserable while operating it?

( I'm willing to put money on it that the 2 wheeler is a more competent tractor. )

Please make up your mind. First you say that it isn't a real tractor or that it is a wanna-be tractor. Now it seems that you are agreeing that it is a tractor but that the 2 wheeler is a "more competent" tractor.

I think yours is the real "wanna-be". Someone started with a walk-behind mower, made it self-propelled and then figured out how to attach other things to it. Then they figured out how to get people to actually pay an outrageous price for what is essentially a walk behind lawn mower. Then they actually get you to pay them an additional $400 or so for a cheap seat.

There is one born every minute.............