Texas Fall/Winter thread!

[txdon]

Same photo of a helicopter spraying hot water on turbine on the first page of this 2016 PDF from Europe.

https://energiforskmedia.blob.core....wind-turbines-energiforskrapport-2016-300.pdf

Bruce

Correct, Sweden to be exact. De-icing is not done in Texas.
There is a you-tube that shows it in action. I'll link when I find it again.

edit: added link
Viral Image of Helicopter De-Icing Texas Wind Turbine From 216

 

[rswyan]

I got a friend in Houston that is in his THIRD rolling blackout now. I got a friend in Magnolia, Texas that has been without power for 36 hours. The problem is we don't know if it is a rolling blackout or lines down. The whole time we were without power, we could look across the back of my property and see the power on. This all just stinks.

Agreed - and it should have never happened.

Up to you guys and gals to figure why it did (hint: it wasn't wind or solar) ... and what, if anything, you want to do about it.

We need to build more natural gas power plants.

Texas has tons and tons of natural gas.

Accounts for around 25% of US production, so yeah ... it does.

As far as more NG power plants go - that's all fine, well, and good (I don't have a dog in that fight) ... but ...

The problem is, if you don't build the storage/distribution network to operate in extreme cold, just building more NG power plants aren't going to do any good in extreme cold events like this one.

I'm sitting right now around 1000' south of a Dominion NG injection well that is sited on my property, it's one of many that injects into a tar sands formation here that is used for storage. The original NG from the field was extracted in the early 1900's.

The reason why it is there, and is still being used, is to handle peak winter demand.

Fill it in the summer months when demand is low, draw from it during the cold months when NG demand peaks.

So facilities can be built that can cope with the situation ... just requires the willingness by producers and consumers to make the investment and foot the bill.

Hope you folks get through this very soon ... with as little tragedy as possible.

 

[ruffdog]

Agreed - and it should have never happened.

Up to you guys and gals to figure why it did (hint: it wasn't wind or solar) ... and what, if anything, you want to do about it.

Agree^ it wasn't solar/wind causing the problem.

Verify: Wind, solar not main causes of Texas power outages | wfaa.com

 

[Hay Dude]

No matter who/what you blame, the fact is the windmills didnt work. Systems werent put in place to assure public safety.
No more windmill construction should take place without strict controls over funding for backup energy or emergency maintenance in cold.
However, it makes no sense to build an electrical grid based on a system prone to failure and in need of subsidies if a cheaper, abundant, relatively clean system is available and works in cold.

 

[rswyan]

No matter who/what you blame, the fact is the windmills didnt work. Systems werent put in place to assure public safety.
No more windmill construction should take place without strict controls over funding for backup energy or emergency maintenance in cold.
However, it makes no sense to build an electrical grid based on a system prone to failure and in need of subsidies if a cheaper, abundant, relatively clean system is available and works in cold.

But that's the point: the cheaper, abundant, relatively clean systems you appear to be referencing didn't work in the cold/conditions the region experienced.

From the article ruffdog linked above:

However, in an interview with WFAA prior to his appearance on Fox News, Gov. Abbott explained a significant reason why the state isn't generating enough power is due to natural gas.

"It's frozen in the pipeline. It's frozen at the rig. It's frozen at the transmission line," Gov. Abbott said. "The natural gas providers are incapable of providing the natural gas that feeds into the generators that send power to people's residences there in the Dallas area."

It seems to me, if one truly wants to avoid another one of these catastrophes, the place one would start would be addressing the existing plants and distribution network problems that allowed these normally reliable facilities to suffer problems and outages.

 

[Hay Dude]

But that's the point: the cheaper, abundant, relatively clean systems you appear to be referencing didn't work in the cold/conditions the region experienced.

From the article ruffdog linked above:



It seems to me, if one truly wants to avoid another one of these catastrophes, the place one would start would be addressing the existing plants and distribution network problems that allowed these normally reliable facilities to suffer problems and outages.

We have had much lower temperatures here and no problems whatsoever with Natural Gas.
Must be the way it was installed, not the natural gas itself. I mean NG is used in much colder places, right?

It would seem foolhardy to favor tax payer subsidized windmills, which cost double to produce a kilowatt of power over NG that properly installed can provide dependable power in much harsher climates. No expensive air polluting carbon releasing helicopter deicing, or tax payer subsidies needed.

We have enough NG under the state of Pennsylvania alone to power our country until man finally destroys himself.

 

[ruffdog]

I would lean towards a healthy diversification of different sources for power. Why only depend on one type when no sources are a sure bet forever?

 

[rswyan]

We have had much lower temperatures here and no problems whatsoever with Natural Gas.
Must be the way it was installed, not the natural gas itself.

Yeah, pretty much ... and that very point has been brought up in this thread already.

I mean NG is used in much colder places, right?

So is wind ... assuming you provision them with cold weather packages that allow it.

Fail to do so, and the accusation might be leveled that someone with a vested interest in the failure of renewable energy is setting that system up to fail.

It would seem foolhardy to favor tax payer subsidized windmills, which cost double to produce a kilowatt of power over NG that properly installed can provide dependable power in much harsher climates. No expensive air polluting carbon releasing helicopter deicing, or tax payer subsidies needed.

Wind power prices now lower than the cost of natural gas

We have enough NG under the state of Pennsylvania alone to power our country until man finally destroys himself.

Others may have a different timeline for that than the one you envision.

 

[rswyan]

I would lean towards a healthy diversification of different sources for power. Why only depend on one type when no sources are a sure bet forever?

Seems like an entirely reasonable proposition ... :thumbsup:

 

[Kyle_in_Tex]

The ng is being sold out of state. This is why local ng electric plants are starving for fuel.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

We have had much lower temperatures here and no problems whatsoever with Natural Gas.
Must be the way it was installed, not the natural gas itself. I mean NG is used in much colder places, right?

It would seem foolhardy to favor tax payer subsidized windmills, which cost double to produce a kilowatt of power over NG that properly installed can provide dependable power in much harsher climates. No expensive air polluting carbon releasing helicopter deicing, or tax payer subsidies needed.

We have enough NG under the state of Pennsylvania alone to power our country until man finally destroys himself.

The gas companies didn't winterize their system, so Texas lost 50% of it's natural gas generators. They bet on being able to pocket the money, killed a few people, and made millions mad at them. A similar thing happened in California, except there pocketing the money set the state on fire and killed a few people.

This storm seems to be worse than the Superbowl blizzard of 2011, but not that much worse.

 

[Hay Dude]

Yeah, pretty much ... and that very point has been brought up in this thread already.



So is wind ... assuming you provision them with cold weather packages that allow it.

Fail to do so, and the accusation might be leveled that someone with a vested interest in the failure of renewable energy is setting that system up to fail.



Wind power prices now lower than the cost of natural gas



Others may have a different timeline for that than the one you envision.

Americans cannot all afford to switch to electric heat.
Having frozen windmills and solar panels that dont work on cloudy days results in questionable reliability.
Proper, basic installation of NG results in an incredibly reliable source of energy that works day and night. Doesn’t require environmentally dangerous incredibly expensive batteries to store, either.
As I stated before, I have no problem blending them, but outlawing fracking on federal land and ending coal to take on these 2 unreliable, expensive to retrofit taxpayer subsidized ways to force everyone into electric heat for questionable environmental reasons? It looks like yet another government mandated boondoggle in the making only Jimmy Carter would be proud of.

 

[ruffdog]

If you search "propane shortage" you will also notice that commodity is sometimes oversold to others. I'm sure is is a moving target for the managers of fuels to sell as much as they can and still have enough for the home country. Someday we will all see a shortage and that is why we need to keep all options open. :drink:

 

[buckeyefarmer]

As a reminder, a software bug in Ohio caused one of the largest US power outages in 2003.

Northeast blackout of 23 - Wikipedia

 

[rswyan]

Americans cannot all afford to switch to electric heat.

Ok ...

We heat with gas here, no plans on changing anytime soon - particularly given the fact that it's mostly free now (the electric to run the forced air furnace we pay for, gas itself is free)

OTOH, all that NG that would be burned in Texas ... to generate electricity ? (if their generating plants worked)

It's being used to run heat pumps (electric) - and when temperatures get low enough where the heat pumps aren't enough/efficient - then it's used with resistance coils as supplemental heat (also electric)

I'd be really curious to know what percentage of homes in Texas have gas forced-air furnaces ... or maybe some type of heat pump/gas forced-air combo.

Anybody ?

Having frozen windmills and solar panels that dont work on cloudy days results in questionable reliability.

As does having NG electric generation plants that don't work when it gets really cold out ... :laughing:

Point would be are there any solutions to "frozen windmills" ? (or NG electric generation plants that don't work in extreme cold)

Of course, there are ... but one has to make the investment to get the technology ... and then actually implement it.

Proper, basic installation of NG results in an incredibly reliable source of energy that works day and night.

It's what heats my home ...

Of course, if the electric goes out that does pose a wee bit of a problem ... since the NG forced-air furnace relies on it ... :laughing:

Doesn稚 require environmentally dangerous incredibly expensive batteries to store, either.

There is no need to necessarily store solar or wind generated energy AFAIK ... if one has enough excess generating capacity using other types.

Run the solar when the sun is shining, and the wind when it's blowing ... and run other types when neither of those two are available.

As I stated before, I have no problem blending them ...

Good ... :thumbsup:

 

[rswyan]

As a reminder, a software bug in Ohio caused on of the largest US power outages in 2003.

Northeast blackout of 23 - Wikipedia

Sooo ... the code monkeys strike again then ? ... :laughing:

 

[rswyan]

The gas companies didn't winterize their system, so Texas lost 50% of it's natural gas generators. They bet on being able to pocket the money, killed a few people, and made millions mad at them. A similar thing happened in California, except there pocketing the money set the state on fire and killed a few people.

Sadly, that seems to be the case.

This storm seems to be worse than the Superbowl blizzard of 2011, but not that much worse.

In any event, these things do happen ... it's not like they are totally unknown or are somehow out of the realm of possibility ... :confused3:

 

[rswyan]

If you search "propane shortage" you will also notice that commodity is sometimes oversold to others. I'm sure is is a moving target for the managers of fuels to sell as much as they can and still have enough for the home country. Someday we will all see a shortage and that is why we need to keep all options open. :drink:

:thumbsup:

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Sooo ... the code monkeys strike again then ? ... :laughing:

First energy, who now owns my electric utility in MD.

 

[two_bit_score]

South Texas .. is not Norway or other Northern Countries. Simple geography might demonstrate that to you?

"do you want to pay for winterizing your generation plants for once in a decade or longer occurrence, or are you going to put up with the current conditions."

No, we'd prefer NG power. We have lots of it. The last time it got this cold was 1989 and we had no ice, no freezing rain, just low temperatures.

You should really research the conditions we've faced here .. the last three days .. instead of just sounding like an uneducated loon.

Never mind .. you've got your mind made up.

I hope Washington State is "smart" enough to go total Wind / Solar. Disconnect yourselves from the Western Grid as well .. if your so sure .. of your position.

We are flaring off NG all over the state as people are shivering. But....we have wind and solar. Wind turbines are frozen and solar panels are covered with snow. Green Power is a fraud.

Let the natural gas flow!