Texas Spring/Summer Thread

[Western]

West really got hammered, can't imagine a blast heard 50 miles away. Who knew a fertilizer plant was THAT dangerous:shocked: Prayers for all. I heard 5 firefighters unaccounted for.

High winds right now, slight rain has moved through, radar shows wetness east of here and moving further away. Low 50's now. Nap time.

Being ex Texas LEO, I am proud of the response for "All hands on deck" And the response of area businesses that opened their doors to help and feed responders and West residents. The response from Texas agencies was incredible.

As far as the volunteer fireman presumed missing, Heroes IMO and best wishes for their families as they wait for information. Most of these VF, do this for the community, they dont "go on strike", dont "walk out" they just get it done.

Had to "edit"
Not surprised, but likewise proud of the "Texans" that responded, if you where watching the early coverage, you saw "regular folk" running "to the scene to help" not the other way around....Just say'in.

 

[econometrics]

Amen to that, Western. Great Texans and great Americans!

 

[txdon]

West really got hammered, can't imagine a blast heard 50 miles away. Who knew a fertilizer plant was THAT dangerous:shocked: Prayers for all. I heard 5 firefighters unaccounted for.

High winds right now, slight rain has moved through, radar shows wetness east of here and moving further away. Low 50's now. Nap time.

The Texas City explosion was also a fertilizer explosion - April 16, 1947 - 581 people died and it wipe out the FD.
Texas City Disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It should be noted, Texas requires NO minimum training to be a Volunteer Firefighter.

 

[Western]

The Texas City explosion was also a fertilizer explosion, - 581 people died and it wipe out the FD.
Texas City Disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don, thanks for the link:thumbsup: I had heard about that, but never read any articles about it. 2.300 tons!! WOW the Oklahoma Alfred P Murrah bombing was only 4-5k lbs, or just over 2 tons! I also didn't realize it started on a docked ship.

 

[txdon]

When thinking about evacuation distances I always remember the two-ton anchor of that ship, it was thrown 1.62 miles.

In West I was reading where the VFD was the process of evacuating when it blew. They knew the explosion potential and were trying to minimize life exposure - but time was not on their side yesterday. Sometimes all you can do is still not enough.

 

[Western]

Amen to that Don, I think they did the best they could with what they had..knowing..Heroes by any definition.

 

[jinman]

Looking at the apartment building on the news, I could not help but notice how the roof debris looked like it had been lifted from the inside. I suspect the blast blew out windows and doors and raised the pressure inside the structure so that the the roof lifted and then fell before collapsing. Perhaps that's the view on the side opposite the blast, but it reminds me of the way buildings come apart in movies of bomb tests showing shock wave damage. When you see the terrific damage to vehicles, there must have been lots of heavy debris flying around too.

West is just one of many communities with similar fertilizer facilities. We don't think of them as we think of facilities that make bombs and explosives for weapons. Perhaps we should. Could we look at these facilities and make sure that safety zones are in place and people cannot live so close? Of course, these facilities start small and then grow. In small towns, jobs are more important than zoning restrictions.

 

[bindian]

Don, thanks for the link:thumbsup: I had heard about that, but never read any articles about it. 2.300 tons!! WOW the Oklahoma Alfred P Murrah bombing was only 4-5k lbs, or just over 2 tons! I also didn't realize it started on a docked ship.

Dennis,
That blast put the 3,000 pound ship's anchor over one and a half miles away. They have it at the memorial now.

On the rain front...........I slept thru the piddle we got. Mysteriously, my rain guage disappeared. Very unnerving trying to figure that one out.
hugs, Brandi

 

[Western]

My wife's boss found out today that her sons best friends uncle (I know down the line) died in his house 1 block from the explosion. His house was totally destroyed. The worry was that her son may have been there since he stayed there 3-4 days a week. Last night was her sons luckiest day, since he was in Waco, but she was in a panic until early this morning when he called.


Brandi, is it possible the gauge blew off?? been real windy here, I know that is a "long shot". I swear one of Jim's buckets blow down my street,:laughing: we've had gust probably up to 35mph+

 

[Kyle_in_Tex]

Sad for West. Prayers for the fallen and their families.

TxDon, question, why do firefighters go into buildings that could collapse or situations where an explosion is a big possibility? I understand if you can quickly get in to attempt to save a human, but only if it is known that humans are in it. The tragedy in Bryan at the burning VFW hall a few months ago that killed 2 firefighters for example. That whole building wasn't worth the spit in a hog's mouth.

Even the police don't HAVE to put their lives in peril, even if it could save another's life. That went up to the supreme court some years ago.

 

[Kyle_in_Tex]

Oh I almost forgot, there was a fertilizer explosion just west of Bryan at Smetana a few years back. Not this big but big. They thought with the winds that they might have to evacuate the community. Many got out. Ammonia is not fun.

 

[dave1949]

Sad for West. Prayers for the fallen and their families.

TxDon, question, why do firefighters go into buildings that could collapse or situations where an explosion is a big possibility? I understand if you can quickly get in to attempt to save a human, but only if it is known that humans are in it. The tragedy in Bryan at the burning VFW hall a few months ago that killed 2 firefighters for example. That whole building wasn't worth the spit in a hog's mouth.

Even the police don't HAVE to put their lives in peril, even if it could save another's life. That went up to the supreme court some years ago.

I'm sure txdon has more experienced insight, but I see this as a darned if you, darned if you don't situation. The local VFD must have had drills on responding to fires at the plant and knew its potential to take out that section of town. Plus, some of their family members could well have been working in the plant since it is a small community.

It's a terrible position to be in, they were very brave.

 

[WM75Guy]

Unfortunately in the emergency services business things go bad quickly. When the call comes in we have to go and size up the situation even if we have pre-planned the business and know what can happen. The Incident Commander makes a decision on strategy and the troups decide on the tactics to accomplish it. Imagine trying to evacuate the area just 1000' in all directions from the plant with 6-10 first responders. From the first call stating there was a fire to the explosion was reported to be 20 minutes. You have the apartments, the nursing home with 133 residents and the school at the bottom of the photo, not to mention the houses. This is one that will be studied in the emergency services for how to respond to incidents like this. The news on how the first responders quickly and appropriately triaged, treated and transported the patients to the right hospitals was a bright spot in a bad situation.

While no injury, death or property loss should ever be taken lightly, why some died or were injured and other survived is sometimes a matter of luck or circumstance. In the satellite photo if you draw straight lines from the tank to the corners of the apartments you can see the 2 story apartment building shielded the nursing home from the blast. If not for the apartments the nursing home would have been destroyed.

As far as allowing it to be that close to houses, the plant was there first and the town built up around it. We had a firetruck built there by the W.A. Neel Company in 1983. West was a small place then. I had to go back occasionally for parts or service. Most people don't know or don't consider what is around them when they buy a house or property. Look at the people who bought million dollar homes in Southlake or Grapevine and then found out they were in the approach pattern for DFW Airport. When the wind changed and the traffic patterns changed they screamed to have the airport moved, like that's going to happen.

 

[texasjohn]

My son, a pharmaceutical rep, knows the doctor shown on TV who initiated the nursing home evacuation and was injured there in the explosion. He characterizes the town as agriculture and kolaches. one wonders if any fertilizer company carries sufficient insurance to cover the potential damage and human injury in a case like this...or is it simply a little understood risk accepted necessarily by the community?

Got .3 inches this morning, high winds and dry ground tonight.

There have been 3 purple martins at my house since Wed...I'm thinking they are going to stay...whee!

 

[txdon]

Kyle, the short answer - they shouldn't. The senior officer at the scene has the responsibility to order an evacuation of firefighters if the buildings integrity is compromised. Some can tell better than others, that is where experience comes in, that is why volunteers are at a great risk especially in a small town.

As far as explosion risk - that would come from pre-fire planning and knowing the explosion hazards inside each building in your assigned area. A fertilizer company would have a ton of red flags to consider.

On an ordinary structure fire you cannot put the fire out from the sidewalk when the roof and walls are still standing, you have to get in and get it - but still be aware of how much time you have.

On some buildings you should just evacuate if the fire is in the hazardous area.

There will be a detailed report from the State Fire Marshall's Office detailing every hazard area, every action and every location of each firefighter and fire fatality. That final report will take a while - probably 6-9 months.

The old saying has always been "There is not a building standing that is worth a life". It's always the unexpected, unknown, nature of the job that will bite you.

 

[Western]

It's always the unexpected, unknown, nature of the job that will bite you[/COLOR].

I'm betting this will be the case, at least for the 1st responders. With approximately 24 minutes from page out to explosion they had just enough time to realize the huge danger and started to evacuate residence (from what I have heard stated) A Dallas FD Captain, who lived in West, also responded and was killed, he had 30+ years of good training. He was not on the Volunteer force from what I heard, but a dedicated Fireman trying to help his community.

Also reported, the storage tank that exploded was in a building, so may have been somewhat "camouflaged" to the initial responders. The Ammonium Nitrate tank according to a chemist interviewed, only takes 400 degrees to become extremely explosive, if you saw the initial fire (recordings released) you can bet it was well over 400 degrees at the time of the explosion. I think the FD had just enough time to get there, access and say "oh ch^t! worst case scenario"

 

[jinman]

As far as allowing it to be that close to houses, the plant was there first and the town built up around it. We had a firetruck built there by the W.A. Neel Company in 1983. West was a small place then. I had to go back occasionally for parts or service. Most people don't know or don't consider what is around them when they buy a house or property. Look at the people who bought million dollar homes in Southlake or Grapevine and then found out they were in the approach pattern for DFW Airport. When the wind changed and the traffic patterns changed they screamed to have the airport moved, like that's going to happen.

Randy, your points all agree with the what I'm saying. That fertilizer plant would probably not have been built around if the sign out front said "Pantex" or some other ordnance manufacturer. Because it is a fertilizer plant, or even a chemical plant, people don't feel as threatened.

As far as Grapevine/Colleyville/Southlake/Coppell cities, those were tiny towns when DFW airport was built. Carpenter farm was a huge tract of raw mesquite covered prairie. Grapevine was a dying little town that supported recreation on Lake Grapevine and housed lots of Army Corp of Engineer workers who maintained the Dam. The airport purchased huge tracts of undeveloped land for future expansion and safe zone areas. Hwy 121 wasn't much more than a bumpy paved cow path and Beltline Rd through Coppell wasn't anything but a speed trap. Southlake incorporated in 1956 and didn't grow until DFW airport was built. The same is true of Irving/Grand Prairie/Arlington/Euless on the south side of the airport. Many people complained that was being built way out in the country away from the people in Dallas and Ft. Worth it was built to serve. So yes, people do live right next to the airport, but with a little examination, they could have seen that the Airport owned the undeveloped areas that butted up to their new "McMansion" development. The existence of the airport and the boom to economics is the reason those cities exist.

Even so, if you stand on the airport's property line, you are probably at least 2 miles from the terminal if not much more. If fertilizer plants were required to have even a half-mile boundary, the danger of the immediate blast zone would be contained. It would not have saved the lives of the VFD members, but it would have saved the homes and injuries to many. Unfortunately, the fertilizer plant didn't have the funds to buy large tracts of land when it was started. Unlike the airport, it had no public funding and taxation authority. It was a private enterprise just hoping to be a big enough success to stay in existence. People considered it no more danger than if it had been the Acme Brick Company in Ennis or the grain silos in Saginaw. Because of the explosion, we may never know what led to the fire that triggered it. After the area is declared safe, investigating the fire will be a whole new challenge. That's one process that Don is probably very familiar with. Let's hope they can identify some definitive causes and put in safeguards in the future.

 

[Western]

Jim, your right. I remember in the early 80's dove hunting off Randall Mill rd just east of 820!! All house and businesses now.

I know the fertilizer (not a "plant", it is a storage/distribution farm supplier) was built in 1962. Allot changed in 50 years.

A just plaint beautiful morning, prior to the winds picking up. Had some decent frost, Tomatoes and peppers looked to have done well under the buckets:thumbsup: Radishes took 2 days to show them selves too.

 

[jinman]

A just plaint beautiful morning, prior to the winds picking up. Had some decent frost, Tomatoes and peppers looked to have done well under the buckets:thumbsup:

I haven't gone to my garden yet. I'm too wimpy to go out when the temperature is this cold. I did look down at my garden from my deck and it looks like all my buckets and pots survived with no frost damage. :laughing:

 

[Western]

I haven't gone to my garden yet. I'm too wimpy to go out when the temperature is this cold. I did look down at my garden from my deck and it looks like all my buckets and pots survived with no frost damage. :laughing:

:laughing: Right, I went out at daylight to "try" again for a turkey (after I made the boss a fire) Even the turkey weren't dumb as me to be out in the cold:laughing: