The BEST HVAC system for your home, hands down

[xrjohndeere]

I have a couple of questions about AC in our new house build.

One builder insisted that they only install brand C. I have had very good luck with Brand A, and I tend to be very loyal if I find something that works well. You have seen the high end unit we currently have in another thread. Is it reasonable to insist on what we want or just roll with it?

Next question... We designed our new house with a first floor mechanical room to house all other the things typically pit in an attic. The room will be accessible from the outside, so maintenance people don't need to worry about the rest of the house as much. We can also then change filters and such without climbing as we are getting older and kids are gone. The same builder was insisting they still put the equipment in the attic. Help me understand if this makes sense.

No sense. The builder is working for you. If you do not want it in the attic stand firm on your decision. I personally would not want my hvac unit in the attic. I have repaired too many drywall ceilings from stopped up hvac drain.

 

[Sigarms]

You're right Sig, it's not a split system but an AC with a heat pump as well, it can reach into the 30's in January.

This is the issue with HVAC terminology sometimes.

What you stated makes no sense to me.

Generally with split unitary product, you have 1 - heat pump (outdoor HP unit with indoor air handler/blower which has the coil) 2 - Gas/AC or (indoor coil/gas furnace with AC outdoor unit) 3 - Dual fuel, heat pump (outdoor unit) with gas furnace and coil (indoor unit) .

If what you have is not a split system, it's a package unit.

Package units come in

1 - Gas pack (A/C with gas heat).

2 - Heat Pump (with strip heat for back up heat).

3 - Straight AC (very odd, generally I come across them in Florida, added it's getting to the point with overall sales, it's cheaper to buy a package heat pump or gas pack than a straight AC package unit).

4 - Dual fuel package unit. Combination of heat pump with gas for heat (back up heat generally) with no heat strips.

When looking for a "coil", you either have the indoor coil (coil inside a air handler or dedicated coil on a furnace) or outdoor coil (which is the coil on the outdoor condensing unit, or with package units, you have the condensing unit coil with evaporator coil.

What's happening with SEER rating is one of the coils (or both of them) are getting larger and larger (physically) for efficiency ratings.

 

[Sigarms]

No sense. The builder is working for you. If you do not want it in the attic stand firm on your decision. I personally would not want my hvac unit in the attic. I have repaired too many drywall ceilings from stopped up hvac drain.

110% agreed.

However, if it's a two story house, there could be design issues with the way the house is designed which makes it more difficult to run ductwork from the first floor to the second floor, would be my best guess.

I have 3 systems. Two in the basement mechanical room which handle the basement and first floor, and one system in the attic, which handles the third floor sleeping area.

Generally speaking, if a system is done on the first floor to handle the second floor as well, both duct systems are run between floors, with the first floor having vents in the ceiling, and the second floor having vents in the floor.

As to my attic system, primary drain pan, secondary drain pan along with multiple safety float switches, 17 or 18 years here, never had a problem.

At the end of the day, the however the customer wants it and is willing to pay, that is the way the customer gets it. Worst case, if your a professional in any aspect of the industry and disagree with what the customer wants, you make sure you include why you disagree with the customer in what work is to be performed on the proposal.

 

[ultrarunner]

Sometimes it's the smaller things that don't appear very quick per system failure.

Not pulling a proper vacuum.

Not using decent solder.

Checking pressures, but never checking airflow and static pressure.

Having a long line set run but not following the manufacturers guidelines on what needs to be added.

The only reason for this post is that when you ask about a brand of equipment wondering "how good is it?", the reality is pretty much all of them will work fine when installed properly.

I went 2 stage 16 SEER variable speed because I was able to utilize a personal use program directly from the manufacture. My rep wanted me to try a "higher line" but it required a proprietary communicating thermostat. For myself, I won't touch a propriety communicating thermostat made by the manufacturer (and the only tstat you can use) due to way to many potential issues down the road.

My dad's buddy has a home about 40 minutes from us. He lives in Pa though. He called me, dealer installed a Lennox high end XP system with proprietary thermostat. He called me because the installing dealer wanted $1,600 to replace a thermostat that was out of warranty by a year. I was able to get the job done for him for $900, and that was only because the thermostat was well over half that price.

2 Stage, variable speed air handler / gas furnace with any Honeywell thermostat is my high end limit LOL

Yep… married at the hip until divorce….

Some of my locations don’t have Internet so that would be a problem

 

[ultrarunner]

I custom fabricated a large catch pan with two drains going to daylight over the kitchen sink window and once my sister in law called to say water dripping...

A well designed catch is money well spent.

As to sizing this 1950 home without A/C or central heat I downsized...

Reason is wanting to keep the circuit at the 30 amps that was available from the old dryer circuit when dryer went electric.

Twenty years now and even when 110 outside it remains nice inside...

When two bedrooms added 10 years ago did not upside and still good.

Pulled all sheetrock to insulate plus attic and premium windows and large shade tree blocks much of summer intense heat.

Brother's friend HVAC company owner followed the job and said seeing is believing... but as a contractor he needs to be certain his systems have enough capacity and therefore specified larger...

 

[Sigarms]

Some of my locations don’t have Internet so that would be a problem

I got stuck on a HVAC/Internet problem more than a couple of times. End of the day, the problem was with the internet and had nothing to do with the HVAC system.

It's great if you live in a city area with great internet connection, but overall due to the area where I live and where a lot of customers live, the internet is something I'm not a proponent of to play with your HVAC system. Install it, let her run, install secondary safety devices if need be, but don't worry about it (I understand the same may not be said of commercial applications such as hospitals).

That said, no qualms with putting a electronic water safety device to alert you via the internet to let you know with potential water issues that could cause damage in a residential application.

 

[tractortroof]

Installation is super important, but I can tell you after 20+ years experience in hvac and many additional years in aviation electronics that brand in hvac systems matters.

In florida systems go through the harshest trials, and ICP products are the best.

The worst in no uncertain order: Trane, York, Lennox, ruud/Rheem, etc. Most are called the worst because of evaporator coil failure rate.

I actively work in the field and have since 2001, right now we’re replacing 10-13 year old Goodman’s that we installed. Goodman is my second favorite brand (a distant second) . At 13 years, in our climate, they are generally falling apart.

 

[Sigarms]

Brother's friend HVAC company owner followed the job and said seeing is believing...

That's exactly why I went with a 2 stage compressor on this new install.

I'm curious about the humidity and how a 2 stage compressor with a variable speed indoor unit will handle it vs a 13 SEER variable speed single stage compressor.

Seeing is believing. Currently, after seeing the whole house dehumidifier, I'm a believer. The question becomes if I still need it with 2 stage variable speed.

 

[Sigarms]

Installation is super important, but I can tell you after 20+ years experience in hvac and many additional years in aviation electronics that brand in hvac systems matters.

In florida systems go through the harshest trials, and ICP products are the best.

The worst in no uncertain order: Trane, York, Lennox, ruud/Rheem, etc. Most are called the worst because of evaporator coil failure rate.

I actively work in the field and have since 2001, right now we’re replacing 10-13 year old Goodman’s that we installed. Goodman is my second favorite brand (a distant second) . At 13 years, in our climate, they are generally falling apart.

FYI, ICP and Carrier are pretty much the same. My ICP rep has a Carrier signature line, go figure LOL

I've got to ask, in all your 20 years plus, how many heat pumps and gas furnaces have you installed since you mentioned Florida?

EVERYONE has had evaporator coil leak issues to the point that every manufacturer has had a class action lawsuit settled out of court.

EVERY company you've listed I've been to their manufacturing facility. I'm come to the conclusion same crap, different day.

I'm not trying to be combative, just after dealing with all these manufacturers, every one is screwed up somehow, somewhere if you deal with them long enough to see it. Don't even get me going where ICP is screwed up, but overall, I will agree with you that overall, the quality even with pretty much nothing being made in the US is pretty good.

Average life expectancy of a new HVAC system is 7-13 years. Blame that on the government IMO for having all manufacturers trying to meet energy standards which always change over time.

Next year, it's A 15 SEER MINIMUM, 2025, say goodby to R410A.

 

[Torvy]

I don't remember the unit you speak of, but are you dealing with the builder or the HVAC contractor?

I would also think that although you had good luck with Brand A, you probably had better luck with the installing contractor installing brand A.

Personally, I could never understand why people build homes but never have the choice of what HVAC system they want, let alone being stuck with a crappy $50 thermostat in a 500k home.

I have a high-end Trane.

https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/20210825_183605-jpg.711012/

I am dealing with the builder. We have 2 builders bidding. He wants to use Carrier and says that is what everyone in the area uses. I hear what you are saying about the contactor, but how do I know if they are good or bad until it is too late?

I really like the continuously variable fan. We have save literally hundreds per month in the summer and still lowered the temps.

 

[Torvy]

He's trying to stick with his regular subs and attic installed 'brand C' is what his regular sub knows how to do. Is AC separate from heat system?

AC and heat go together. Heat will need to be LP instead of Natural Gas at the new place.

The place is really one floor with attic over part of it. The living room area will be vaulted and have exposed vent work like an industrial look.

 

[Sigarms]

I really like the continuously variable fan. We have save literally hundreds per month in the summer and still lowered the temps.

What you're looking for is a constant torque variable airflow motor, AKA "true" variable speed.

I get it, the two (and 3rd system) I replaced I with with the same fan type due to low air flow movement.

My only point is going with a variable speed indoor motor, the return on investment isn't there over 16 SEER.

Keep in mind, a variable speed constant torque motor (AKA X-13) is actually more energy efficient than a variable speed constant air flow motor ("true" variable speed).

I don't know about your area, but I'm calling BS on the statement per the builder "that's what everyone else is using". Either Carrier worked out a deal with the builder or the builders HVAC contractors want to use Carrier vs Trane.

Honestly, I'd just stay away from a proprietary communicating t stat where the system HAS to use it no matter what brand you use.

 

[ultrarunner]

That's exactly why I went with a 2 stage compressor on this new install.

I'm curious about the humidity and how a 2 stage compressor with a variable speed indoor unit will handle it vs a 13 SEER variable speed single stage compressor.

Seeing is believing. Currently, after seeing the whole house dehumidifier, I'm a believer. The question becomes if I still need it with 2 stage variable speed.

Humidity or high humidity is very rare in summer and sometimes when it is really hot humidity is single digits.

Unit is old now but several stages of gas heat and variable speed blower.

One of his neighbors had just prior had similar done and very unhappy...

Spent a fortune including new electrical service to provide 40 amp circuit, lost the only hall/coat closet and when it is on it's like a windy day that never stops.

Of course I'm dating myself because my install was 1998...

Brother newly married and said on first hot day A/C or we are moving to her condo.

Brother lived there 10 years prior and A/C central heat was never on the to do list.

 

[tractortroof]

FYI, ICP and Carrier are pretty much the same. My ICP rep has a Carrier signature line, go figure LOL

I've got to ask, in all your 20 years plus, how many heat pumps and gas furnaces have you installed since you mentioned Florida?

EVERYONE has had evaporator coil leak issues to the point that every manufacturer has had a class action lawsuit settled out of court.

EVERY company you've listed I've been to their manufacturing facility. I'm come to the conclusion same crap, different day.

I'm not trying to be combative, just after dealing with all these manufacturers, every one is screwed up somehow, somewhere if you deal with them long enough to see it. Don't even get me going where ICP is screwed up, but overall, I will agree with you that overall, the quality even with pretty much nothing being made in the US is pretty good.

Average life expectancy of a new HVAC system is 7-13 years. Blame that on the government IMO for having all manufacturers trying to meet energy standards which always change over time.

Next year, it's A 15 SEER MINIMUM, 2025, say goodby to R410A.

Gas furnaces in Florida typically don’t break, like I mean close to never. Not enough use. I have installed every type, including condensing. Why I ever did that I have no idea (payback?)

ICP coils are way better than anyone else. I guess I should call them United technologies coils, since they are the parent company, ICP technically a subsidiary of Carrier. I have close to a thousand systems installed out there and especially since they changed to the all aluminum, have replaced only 3 coils. They are simply incredible, no other manufacturer comes close.

What problems could you possibly have with ICP? Always interesting to hear from another perspective

 

[ultrarunner]

Coil failure under warranty with huge lead time is what soured me on Daiken.

Also as an owner they would not speak with me until I said my next action is to file a claim with the State Attorney General Fraud Section...

Felt sorry for the installing contractor because he had so much time wrapped up on this.

York would be my next least favorite as twice now runaway strip heaters melting... in the heat of summer... Installing contractors last job too... another mess as he sold the business to a competitor and retired to Florida.

 

[tractortroof]

What you're looking for is a constant torque variable airflow motor, AKA "true" variable speed.

I get it, the two (and 3rd system) I replaced I with with the same fan type due to low air flow movement.

My only point is going with a variable speed indoor motor, the return on investment isn't there over 16 SEER.

Keep in mind, a variable speed constant torque motor (AKA X-13) is actually more energy efficient than a variable speed constant air flow motor ("true" variable speed).

I don't know about your area, but I'm calling BS on the statement per the builder "that's what everyone else is using". Either Carrier worked out a deal with the builder or the builders HVAC contractors want to use Carrier vs Trane.

Honestly, I'd just stay away from a proprietary communicating t stat where the system HAS to use it no matter what brand you use.

Both of those motors are dependent upon a perfectly designed duct system. The amp draw on both goes up with high static pressure. Neither is more efficient. True variable is more expensive for the consumer so I avoid it.

The largest new construction companies here use Carrier (ICP). None use Trane. Most builders will reject bids with Trane and that’s been true for as long as I can remember.

I just replaced my pastors Trane coils…2019 install and they didn’t last 2 years. I tell them the next time they go out it’ll be time to get another air handler from ICP. Trane has never fixed their coil issue.

I can’t wait till they change the refrigerant again, sigh

 

[Sigarms]

Humidity or high humidity is very rare in summer and sometimes when it is really hot humidity is single digits.

In my neck of the woods, during the summer particularly at night, humidity can reach 80%-90%.

What people forget it that it's not the actual temperature that keeps you comfortable, the the relative humidity level.

 

[ultrarunner]

Yep... many problems of our own making...

Just bought a small ice machine and it said caution Flammable refrigerant...

Are we going back to the beginning of refrigeration?

 

[Sigarms]

Coil failure under warranty with huge lead time is what soured me on Daiken.

The issue back then from what I remember is Daikin moved their manufacturing facility from Huston to their new location in Texas (everything made under one roof so to speak).

I remember when Goodman guys were complaining about coils from Goodman with availability. Lots of guys were using 3rd party rated coils back then just to get by that were approved by Goodman because they knew they were screwed.

It may not change anything, but you drew the short stick on luck of the draw when they were moving plants.

I'm dealing with another manufacturer that is having issues just for the fact that they didn't plan it right, but it has nothing to do with equipment, but their software which is a pain in the butt to use because they never did any beta testing to ensure it would work. Go figure...

 

[Sigarms]

Both of those motors are dependent upon a perfectly designed duct system. The amp draw on both goes up with high static pressure. Neither is more efficient. True variable is more expensive for the consumer so I avoid it.

The largest new construction companies here use Carrier (ICP). None use Trane. Most builders will reject bids with Trane and that’s been true for as long as I can remember.

I just replaced my pastors Trane coils…2019 install and they didn’t last 2 years. I tell them the next time they go out it’ll be time to get another air handler from ICP. Trane has never fixed their coil issue.

I can’t wait till they change the refrigerant again, sigh

I've found the X-13 works better with high static duct systems vs variable speed. What works best IMO? Good old cheap PSC motor LOL

Look at ICP ratings, you see you get higher efficiency with the X-13 motor vs the variable speed motor. Pretty much the case with all manufacturers.

Let you in on a secret, from my first picture, you should know what equipment I used

But honestly, that's due to some other things. I would not have been bothered if it were a couple of other brands.

I've had close to 30 years between two Lennox "off brand" systems, 2 defrost boards, one blower motor and two capacitors replaced in those 30 years of combined operation between the two, and that wasn't a bad run IMO. Because the outdoor TXV went on the one and since it was over 14 years old, decided it was time to replace it.