The best steering system at dump 4 wheel wagon trailer

[Iplayfarmer]

Thanks everyone !!!

Blagadan, indeed, 6000 lbs means aprox. 3 ton (in fact 2.721 kg) . so Renze's right !!!. But...yes...a wagon like that..!!!!.
Iplayfarmer thanks for Ackermann idea. Unfortunately Ackermann steering has a limited turning circle. Besides it's too tricky for me...But that post about measurement and ratios could help me...

GuglioLS inspires me a lot, wih his nice job. But for my needs, I choose four wheel wagon/trailer. The main problem I have is steering. I want something simple&efficient. Adaptable and easy to be mounted !!! Something like this..

That 5th wheel type steering is definately the sharpest turner and can be built to handle a lot of weight.

Two concerns are the stability factor when the axle is turned 90 degrees and the fact that you have to build the deck high enough to allow clearance for the tire to pass under. These may be non-issues for your appilcation.

 

[CFHartman]

Lyon the post under my last one has a picture with the type I was talking about. The only difference is the ones I used had another steering end like the front without a tung. You have two cross pieces connecting the two ends. When one turns the other turns the other way. Like a 4 wheel steering tractor or lawn mower. Ours had tandem axles on both ends
Charlie

 

[lyon]

Thanks all again !!!

Blagadan, I appreciate your jokes but remember, we are here in "build-it yourself" section. I don't know, just I suppose that Kory use Ackermann steering. The best joke you posted is that with rear hydraulic steering pic. I'll never can do something like this. Built my myself, I mean !!!
Charlie, I understand, I think you worked with all-wheel-steering.
Kernopelli, the tandem axles could be the best options if you are thinking at the back manoeuvre. I agree. There is an optimum wheelbase, if you try to enlarge this, you can have problems with steering, tires, etc...Never you can turn with tandem axle at 90 deg. !!!. OK, I don't want to justify here my own choice !!!. Regarding my tractor "size"...Powerful enough to haul this 5 tons attached trailer, of course loaded at just 2 tons with grain. I hauled it with my Kubota B1600DT.... Anyway I'll never haul more than 5500 lbs. 6000lbs was just for "covering"...calculation..

Generally speaking I don't understand why somebody would try to change my options, if I'm decided to build 4 wheel wagon style dump trailer. If I'd to argue about different systems here, probably I'd open another thread....or I'd read an already opened one...

Iplayfarmer, seems you understand my option....The two concerns you are mentioned here are justified. Not everyday I turn at 90 deg !!! Anyway this manoeuvre is a "inch by inch" one, so I'll have to be more carefully...Do you know some folk who built by himself a 5.th wheel type steering?. Have you some pics or tech details (sketches) to help me ?


In fact the trailer I've mentioned here was borrowed from a neighbour... homesteader too... when I saw that my "pony" can manage this trailer...I said myself "he" deserve a small replica...

 

[Iplayfarmer]

Do you know some folk who built by himself a 5.th wheel type steering?. Have you some pics or tech details (sketches) to help me ?...

I don't know anyone who's built something like this. It seems to me that a good 5th wheel type steering would be pretty hard to fabricate in a home shop environment, especially with the kind of weight you're talking about. You've got two plates that turn on each other, and the tolerances would have to be pretty tight.

You might look into some existing system that you could adapt. Salvage a 5th wheel plate off an old semi truck and a king pin off a trailer. I've seen a few 5th wheel plates sell at auctions for pretty cheap.

You might also consider using a wheel hub turned on its side. Someone is going to chime in to explain how dumb this idea is because a wheel is not meant to carry it's load turned sideways like this. It may or may not work.

Think creatively. There has to be something out there already fabbed up that will be cheaper and easier than building this mechanism from scratch.

 

[Renze]

I don't know anyone who's built something like this. It seems to me that a good 5th wheel type steering would be pretty hard to fabricate in a home shop environment, especially with the kind of weight you're talking about. You've got two plates that turn on each other, and the tolerances would have to be pretty tight.

For what you are describing, this is the standard component:
http://www.bpw.de/en/produkte/nfz/data/pdf_connection_assemblies/BPW_Lenkkraenze_2007e.pdf

You might look into some existing system that you could adapt. Salvage a 5th wheel plate off an old semi truck and a king pin off a trailer. I've seen a few 5th wheel plates sell at auctions for pretty cheap.

This sounds do-able to me... it wont make as many miles when used as a turntable, so it might last longer than you would think...

 

[Kernopelli]

Thanks all again !!!
Kernopelli, the tandem axles could be the best options if you are thinking at the back manoeuvre. I agree. There is an optimum wheelbase, if you try to enlarge this, you can have problems with steering, tires, etc...Never you can turn with tandem axle at 90 deg. !!!. OK, I don't want to justify here my own choice !!!. Regarding my tractor "size"...Powerful enough to haul this 5 tons attached trailer, of course loaded at just 2 tons with grain...

Generally speaking I don't understand why somebody would try to change my options, if I'm decided to build 4 wheel wagon style dump trailer. If I'd to argue about different systems here, probably I'd open another thread....or I'd read an already opened one...
QUOTE]

lyon, sorry if you felt I was trying to tell you to do something else. I was not trying to "change (your) options" I was attempting to point out options that pertain to convenience, driveability and personal safety. I completely understood you had made a choice to build a wagon style trailer, I was simply trying to bring up points you may or may not have considered.
The comment about size of your tractor was in no way intended to question if yours is big enough to pull the load, that is pretty much a given. Lets face it, a small riding lawn mower will pull a 6000lbs vehicle on a hard level surface. I don't think either of us would want to use it to pull it down a steep slope with ruts or with trees or a sharp turn at the bottom though. I don't think you would want to do it with a B1600 either. A tractors relative size is pretty important when it comes to stopping a load, I was concerned you may not have considered the ability to safely stop it. Thus, the question about tractor size and brakes. It's pretty common on this forum to bring variables into the discussions the poster may be interested in when they are asking for advice. You obviously want to hear nothing other than how to make the steering work. OK, a wheel hub was my first thought. They regularly withstand big loads of fore-aft and lateral force. I think an appropriately sized truck hub would work fine. I'd build a box frame around it that extends close to the axle ends to offer good support and simply use the lugs as a connection point to the wagon frame. Very similar to the drawing you posted.

 

[lyon]

Thanks all again !!!
@Kernopelli/Darryl, please accept my apology, , seems I wrong understand your points of view. All you said is true and right. I feel guilty now !. I am sorry my friend !!!!. Thank you for your concerns regarding breaks and loadings. I'm perfectly conscious that I can't overload my "pony" on a dangerous road. I don't want to kill myself...6000lbs was just a "superior tolerance limit", just for "covering". This number helped me to choose the leaf springs, axles, etc. 5500 lbs -max, just on horizontally smooth roads, usually under 4500 lbs...Regarding the breaks,-, this is chapter II....I know is important- I intent to use the hydraulic connecting hose. Hope can be done....

Iplayfarmer....seems you think more ..creatively..man...!!!. The wheel hub, idea....or truck hub- thanks Darryl !!!!- is brilliant....WOW... But how can I weld this.. on the front axle...I think, in this case, the king pin will be the original end-axle...of that vehicle....Now I understand why is called fifth wheel...a real one...I think -anyway- that at the original place, this wheel works different...big lateral forces (perpendicularly on original axle), and less axial efforts (think at curves). For my application...lateral forces becames traction forces, and axial forces becames loading forces. If lateral and traction forces, are comparable, my guess is that axial and loading forces are NOT (loading are bigger...). Just thoughts !!!. Maybe will work....

The standard is -indubitable, like you said- the turntable. Most off its applications are for heavy trailers, semi-trucks, etc (big loadings) That's why are ussually expensive. Do you know some manufacturers of this kind of devices for light applications (farm, domestic).???
For instance, a 25KN- permitted axial load- ball bearing turntable is round about $400....so...salvaged from an old semitruck....could be my best&affordable option....I said "could be".....probably needs some adaptations...What you say about draft attached...without king-pin?
But you're right.... "There has to be something out there already fabbed up that will be cheaper and easier than building this mechanism from scratch."...to be or not to be.....but where&how ?!!!!

 

[Kernopelli]

lyon, I apologize as well, I am certain I was too harsh and actually worried while at work last night as to how you might feel/respond to my post. I wish you the best on this project and hope I can offer some practical advice as your project progresses.

 

[jayste]

Lyon, I've got some pictures of a fifth wheel steering set-up using a wheel hub as Iplayfarmer suggests. It works quite well for wagons being used to haul people and supplies in a wagon train being pulled by mules or horses. I can't testify to how well in would work for heavy loads. The problem is I've got them in an email and can't seem to paste them on here. I'd be glad to forward them to you if you'll email me. I'm at jay.stewart@woodgroup.com

 

[Iplayfarmer]

Lyon, Are you going to have springs on this wagon? That may affect our collective recommendations as to how to connect your wheel hub/5th wheel on your front axle.