"The House" $40K paint job? $110K GC fee?

[webbmeister]

\"The House\" $40K paint job? $110K GC fee?

Well, we're getting down to the nitty gritty of why our dream house seems to have moved a little beyond reach. Without boring everyone with the details, we're aiming at 3350 square feet. We're getting wildly varying prices for particulars - but a couple really are jumping out at me.

For interior painting without ceilings (they are natural T&G pine throughout) the bids range from (what I consider to be) quite high to plain old outrageous. Low bid for this three bedroom home? $15K. High bid? $40K. For a General contracting fee, a low of $47K to a high of $111K.

I tell you, I'm ready to put up a pole barn and be done with it! On the high paint bid, I'm told that a crew of four men spends two days laying on primer and then two coats of latex. The way I see it, that's eight days of labor. Assume a very generous $1000 for materials, and that leaves $39,000 for labor. At the end of the day, that works out to $609.36 per hour per man!!!

I don't have the time to do much if any of the work or supervision myself. You guys in IT will understand why. Is there anyone on these boards who can tell me what a fair (win-win) rate might be for these two items? How are these rates derived? How is it that reputable union painters in my current city regularly are able to offer to re-paint (all that extra prep!) my current similarly sized house *with ceilings* for $4K to $4.5K? I asked the prospective GC who brought this bid pretty much the same question. He replied that "the paint is what you look at and my guy is really good." I really need help here. Am I missing something magical? Is there some huge difference between painting new construction and existing construction that I'm just not grasping? And the GC fee. It is a six-month project. Assuming this guy works only two jobs a year, (and I know he has several irons in the fire at any one time,) that's more for him each year than the President of the United States made until GW took office! Is this really what I should be expecting? Sorry to sound off.

If anyone cares to shed some light after that rant, I'd surely appreciate it!

Thanks,

Skeptical in Wheaton IL
(Jim)

 

[DVerbarg]

Re: The House $40K paint job? $110K GC fee?

Jim,

The first problem with your paint bid(s) is the city you live in. I live one hour SW of Wheaton and the building costs are very different here.

The GC who built our house is now doing framing work in Wheaton because the Wheaton area pays so incredibly well. Our house is 4200 sq ft with attached two car garage and cost $32k to frame. Our GC was paid the same amount in Wheaton for framing an attached two car garage addition with a finished upstairs. The cost of building appears to be at least double just for being Wheaton.

When we painted our house (interior) we paid a painter to prime the entire house (sans garage) and finish paint the high ceilings. This cost $3825. Of course my wife and I (and a few family and friends) did the finish painting. Based on bids we received we estimate that we saved a conservative $12k. This would seems to be in line with your low paint estimates of $15k. There is definitely workmanship involved in painting. Some painters do a so-so job and others do a quality job and the results can be very visible. The painters who did our work are "Perfecto Painters" and did a very good job, actually did a little more then I asked. Don't remember where they are based but if you would like more info send me an e-mail and I'll get the specifics for you.

Are you looking to build in Wheaton? Depending on where you are looking to build you might be able to glean something from the list of sub-contractors who worked on our house. Our GC did a great job of finding subs who did good work for a fair price.

If construction would slow down a little it might help you a bunch. Most contractors in that area set their prices too high but people keep paying due to supply and demand. That bubble should soon burst just like the spiriling costs of labor did for IT in the late 90's (which hopefully was a help to you /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif).

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: \"The House\" $40K paint job? $110K GC fee?

I built a 2100 sq ft house (not counting attached garage or basement) in 1998. Not real fancy, but not cheap looking either. General contractor builds only a few houses per year; he and his son did all the electric, plumbing and finish carpentry. Costs very reasonable and finished in under 6 months. I was available for the start of all layout to answer questions and make decisions. This allowed us to complete the entire job with only 1 (minor) change.

All of the painters I know have the newest helper put on most of the primer.

I suggest that you look carefully at your needs and talk to the prospective builders about how to meet them. As somebody suggested on another thread, a plan that he has already built will probably be a lot cheaper. A good architect might be able to save you a lot of money if you are willing to listen to him.

Space for shops, kennels, equipment storage, etc. might cost a lot less in a separate pole building than attached to the house.

Perhaps you will decide you don't really want a timber frame home if the price is so high.

 

[rancar]

Re: \"The House\" $40K paint job? $110K GC fee?

Jim --

Your painting bids sound outrageous, but then this may be what the market demands in your area of the country. I can maybe see the low bid of $15K but not that high bid of $40K. I've done all my own painting. I've painted 5 bedroom houses, including ceilings ---- in some cases two coats on walls, one ceiling coat, and even some window and door trim included. I've done these jobs in 3-4 weeks working 5-6 days per week, 8-10 hour days. Assuming the maximum in each of these categories, let's assume I worked 240 hours per job. I don't know what painters charge these days. Let's assume $50/hr. Is this generous enough, comparable with what auto mechanics make? Then, this comes to $12K not including materials, paint, etc. So, the $15K bid may be reasonable, but not that $40K bid.

Can't really comment on the GC costs, but they just feel awfully high.

I'd suggest real careful treading, further research, talk with many other contractors, before commiting to anything.

Regards,
Bob Ancar
Cambridge, NY

 

[RobS]

Re:

Jim, we've just begun the construction phase on a similar sized house. We shopped a number of builders (GC) and finally settled on a wife/husband team last year. They use a very different scheme for cost called "cost plus". Basically, they provide quotes for all the construction elements, total it and add 10% "management fee". Once we signed the contract, all the quotes and estimates become allowances for us to work with. The management fee never changes.

So if I decide to do the backfilling with my trusty 790 and the foundation cost comes in lower than the allowance, we save that money. On the other hand, if we decide on that Tiffany chandelier in the master bath we will go (way) over our lighting allowance and we will be responsible for the difference. It gives us a level of flexibility and control that we like. We spoke with several past clients of thiers before committing and they were all happy.

Back to your questions: $40K for paint, depends on the job. That's more than we have in our plan, but probably not out of the question if there are a lot of color changes etc.

$110K GC fee is way higher than we are paying. What does it work out to overall $/square foot? We're in the $108 range.

Good luck /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[rancar]

Re:

Rob --

Is the $108/sq/ft just GC management fee or does it include construction also? Builders in eastern NYS are charging customers $100-120/sq/ft for construction. I believe GC is lumped in with that.

 

[RobS]

Re: House Construction

The $108 is all inclusive for construction including GC fees. It's fairly high for this area, but our house is pretty complex. The only thing it doesn't include is the property (and tractor), which we already had /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[webbmeister]

Re: The House $40K paint job? $110K GC fee?

Dave:We live in Wheaton and are building in Wauconda, essentially trading suburban for semi-rural - for as long as Wauconda stays somewhat undeveloped.If you have a GC and sub list you're willing to share, that would be extremely helpful. Thanks for the reply.Jim

 

[beenthere]

Re: \"The House\" $40K paint job? $110K GC fee?

I recently (3 mo ago) paid a painter 2400 just to stain, varnish new windows and old, and repaint living room, and kitchen. Apparently these painters are in demand, and a good service business to get into. However, seems I had to do a lot of the preparation (prep walls, move furniture, etc) and the clean-up (remove varnish from window glass, etc) as he said while he was working that "I don't like to do that, you can if you want it done".
I decided (may not get my way) that the next time a painter steps foot in this house he will be paid by the hour, and do what I want done - tape windows, sand before staining and after second coat of varnish, and clean up glass, etc. Who knows, I may even do the easy part which is roll on the paint! I don't plan to have someone tell me what they will and won't do when they are on my money. I may be in for a rude awakening, but I've had enough.
As for the cedar tongue and groove ceiling and beams, they were pre-oiled before they went up by me, and look great. Just hard to keep them looking their best when the painter and drywallers don't give a rip that they are finished.
Wish you luck, and hope you find a local builder at less cost and interested in the work they do, rather than just the money they can get from you, only to turn around a hire someone to actually do the work (maybe this is the tough part that they have) for $15 an hour.
Years ago (in the 60's) I knew a contractor who just bid jobs and bid them very high. If he would get the bid, he would look to contract them out for 1/2 the money and get the job done. All he did was ride herd on the sub contractor.

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

Re: 40k Paint job

40k sounds a incredibly high. The question, however, comes in figuring how much masking and taping the painters will be required to do. Windows and their sizes, exposed beams, door openings and trim all contribute to the work. The painters will spend 4 days painting. Have they explained how long they will be on site in total? Most of the professional painter's around here spray all their walls so the actual painting goes really quick. However, I talked with one that told me the GC he works with requires him to repair any problems with the drywall, and that he sometimes spends more time on that than he does actually painting.

SHF