The Magic Backhoe???

Dougster · Oct 24, 2007

Stopped by a Mahindra dealership today (which shall remain nameless for the time being) and had some interesting discussions on several topics... among them, my perceived lack of power at times with my Bradco 509. The owner of the dealership then proceeded to tell me about an alternative plumbing arrangement, which would cost about $600.00 to implement, that would boost the power of my 509 backhoe dramatically above current levels. Naturally, I was all ears and was ready to pull out my wallet... but as he went looking through his literature for details & diagrams of this seemingly "magical" plumbing arrangement, he suddenly found himself needed elsewhere and begged off... telling me he'd call me back in a couple of days with all the details.

Now since I am a very curious and sometimes highly impatient man... can anyone here tell me or even speculate about what he was talking about? I have long suspected that my current use of one of my rear remote sets has not been the best possible route for hydraulic fluid powering the backhoe to take... but he insists that he is not recommending the old Bradco arrangement wherein a separate "swap-over" line would be installed from the PB port on the FEL control valve directly to the backhoe supply line. Besides, that could never cost as much as $600.00 to implement even in these times of inflated prices. He also insists that he is not talking about a PTO pump.

Any ideas or thoughts? Or does this remain a complete mystery for a couple more days???

Dougster

jpm · Oct 24, 2007

dougster,only thing i can think of is a higher volume main pump but i do not think its only $600. please let us know

Dougster · Oct 25, 2007

jpm said:
dougster,only thing i can think of is a higher volume main pump but i do not think its only $600. please let us know

I don't think that's it. The few details and hints he dropped implied that this is a mere plumbing change... albeit with specialty components & fittings beyond the usual TSC variety. He also insisted that it would leave my FEL and rear remotes fully functional... an important aspect since I will want my grapple and backhoe thumb to remain available.

Thought about it overnight and I'm wondering if this "re-plumbing" manages somehow to evade or defeat the tractor's pressure control circuit and rely solely on the backhoe's pressure control circuit (possibly boosting the latter as well?). Or is he maybe looking to boost the tractor's hydraulic operating pressure overall? I'm wondering if the re-plumbing includes a new flow splitter/diverter/control valve to somehow achieve a dual pressure level scheme???

On the other hand, I may be WAY over-thinking this. If he feels that my use of a rear remote set to power the backhoe is reducing pressure and/or bypassing flow by large amounts, almost any other more direct delivery of flow and pressure might constitute the high percentage improvement he is suggesting. Maybe this is what he's thinking... and maybe he just wants to charge me a lot for his hoses and fittings?

I guess I wait another day or so to find out.

Dougster

LAWALLSTRACTOR · Oct 25, 2007

The only way I see to do this would be to plumb a valve with power beyond into the tractor pressure line before the tractor relief valve. The valve would feed the backhoe directly and power beyond would feed the rest of the tractor. The valve would have it's own relief valve, which would be set higher than the tractor relief setting. Being I am at home and not near my books, I think is arround 2350 PSI, and I believe the backhoe relief is set at 2500 PSI. I have never thought about this before, but this is the only way I could see it being done. I wonder if it would restrict flow to the rest of the tractor. I would like to hear what he comes up with. Please let us know

Reg · Oct 25, 2007

{Simplified}
Force is some function of hydraulic pressure, piston area and mechanical linkages.
Work is some function of that developed force and speed.

So, the magic bullet ?
If it isn't higher pressure or greater flow - Ahh, perhaps the tractor world NEEDS a miracle hydraulic oil additive ?
At $600 an implement... maybe some sort of pressure accumulators ?

Dunno, gotta go make a cuppla bux B4 the sun goes down.

later,

\R

Dougster · Oct 25, 2007

LAWALLSTRACTOR said:
The only way I see to do this would be to plumb a valve with power beyond into the tractor pressure line before the tractor relief valve. The valve would feed the backhoe directly and power beyond would feed the rest of the tractor. The valve would have it's own relief valve, which would be set higher than the tractor relief setting. Being I am at home and not near my books, I think is arround 2350 PSI, and I believe the backhoe relief is set at 2500 PSI. I have never thought about this before, but this is the only way I could see it being done. I wonder if it would restrict flow to the rest of the tractor. I would like to hear what he comes up with. Please let us know

Well, we'll just have to wait and see. Your theory seems reasonable and mostly consistent with his hints... and yet it bothers me that you don't know about this incredible "magic" upgrade. If this mod was truly safe and legit, my guess is that you would have heard about it by now.

On the other hand, what about my theory that use of a rear remote is zapping pressure and/or bypassing flow? Is that possible? Could it be hurting me to such a degree??? If so, almost any more direct plumbing could be considered an "upgrade" to my current situation.

Dougster

Dougster · Oct 25, 2007

Reg said:
{Simplified} Force is some function of hydraulic pressure, piston area and mechanical linkages. Work is some function of that developed force and speed. So, the magic bullet ? If it isn't higher pressure or greater flow - Ahh, perhaps the tractor world NEEDS a miracle hydraulic oil additive ? At $600 an implement... maybe some sort of pressure accumulators ? Dunno, gotta go make a cuppla bux B4 the sun goes down.
later,
\R

I just don't know Reg. One way or another, it has got to be some way of delivering more usable pressure to the backhoe. For $600, it can't be a mere adjustment or "magic" oil. And he was very clear that this was an "alternative plumbing" arrangement... not a new pump. As Galen noted above, it would have to be a way of tapping into tractor hydraulic flow before the tractor's pressure control valve. Alternatively, as I have speculated, this dealer might just be thinking that using a rear remote right now is hurting me badly.

Dougster

Dougster · Oct 25, 2007

Well, the MMM ("magical mystery mod") may be no more than typical salesmanship and hype. It's starting to look like the MMM is no more than Mahindra and Bradco's new standard plumbing recommendation/kit for installation of backhoes on the 3510 and 4110 wherein a new selector valve has now replaced the switching of hoses at the PB port of the FEL. In fact, the FEL valve is taken out of the picture altogether now by tapping into the main supply hose before the FEL control valve. Clearly, use of this new kit would not leave the FEL or the remotes available for operation as I had been told.

But this dubious experience does still raise a very serious question: Am I currently experiencing excessive pressure drop or lost flow by using one of my two rear remotes to power the backhoe??? I guess this Mahindra dealer is saying "yes"! In fact, perhaps Mahindra and Bradco are now saying "yes"!

I find it interesting that Mahindra and Bradco did not simply locate their new selector valve in the PB line leaving the FEL still operable. Why the heck not???

I often use my FEL and backhoe within seconds of each other. I certainly wouldn't want to have to turn a selector valve back and forth each time I moved my tractor 4 feet on a trenching job.

Dougster

Reg · Oct 25, 2007

No, yes, well - sort of.
Running hoses back from a FEL power beyond port includes an impedance (resistance to flow). I think many tractors have outlets at the pump, some are connected with a couple of banjo bolts and a 2 inch or so hard line. As I understand it all the hydraulic oil flows through these BEFORE going to the FEL. They are typically used for rear remotes and/or back-hoe. I think of them as "Power Before" since the pressure outlet is straight from the pump so they ain't "beyond" anything.

If there is a magic plumbing trick I suspect that it is nothing more than taking the fluid through a BIG FAT HOSE from the point where the pressure is highest, i.e. AT THE PUMP and not after going forwards (through several feet of hose) to the FEL, through a valve block and doubling back (through even more feet of hose). I can't see this as co$ting ANYTHING "per implement", other than as a "business opportunity" to get in your wallet.

but whadda I know ?

Dougster · Oct 25, 2007

Reg said:
If there is a magic plumbing trick I suspect that it is nothing more than taking the fluid through a BIG FAT HOSE from the point where the pressure is highest, i.e. AT THE PUMP and not after going forwards (through several feet of hose) to the FEL, through a valve block and doubling back (through even more feet of hose). I can't see this as co$ting ANYTHING "per implement", other than as a "business opportunity" to get in your wallet.

Well, I'm finding it hard to believe that merely bypassing the FEL control valve and not utilizing a rear remote set is going to increase my available pressure at the backhoe by very much. I just don't get it. But I am now more willing than ever to fully instrument it and find out. This may not be the end of the story... I haven't spoken directly with the owner yet... but I find it hard to believe that this #15087 hydraulic kit alone could cost $600.00.

Dougster