The Magic Backhoe???

[Dougster]

Stopped by a Mahindra dealership today (which shall remain nameless for the time being) and had some interesting discussions on several topics... among them, my perceived lack of power at times with my Bradco 509. The owner of the dealership then proceeded to tell me about an alternative plumbing arrangement, which would cost about $600.00 to implement, that would boost the power of my 509 backhoe dramatically above current levels. Naturally, I was all ears and was ready to pull out my wallet... but as he went looking through his literature for details & diagrams of this seemingly "magical" plumbing arrangement, he suddenly found himself needed elsewhere and begged off... telling me he'd call me back in a couple of days with all the details.

Now since I am a very curious and sometimes highly impatient man... can anyone here tell me or even speculate about what he was talking about? I have long suspected that my current use of one of my rear remote sets has not been the best possible route for hydraulic fluid powering the backhoe to take... but he insists that he is not recommending the old Bradco arrangement wherein a separate "swap-over" line would be installed from the PB port on the FEL control valve directly to the backhoe supply line. Besides, that could never cost as much as $600.00 to implement even in these times of inflated prices. He also insists that he is not talking about a PTO pump.

Any ideas or thoughts? Or does this remain a complete mystery for a couple more days???

Dougster

 

[jpm]

dougster,only thing i can think of is a higher volume main pump but i do not think its only $600. please let us know

 

[Dougster]

dougster,only thing i can think of is a higher volume main pump but i do not think its only $600. please let us know

I don't think that's it. The few details and hints he dropped implied that this is a mere plumbing change... albeit with specialty components & fittings beyond the usual TSC variety. He also insisted that it would leave my FEL and rear remotes fully functional... an important aspect since I will want my grapple and backhoe thumb to remain available.

Thought about it overnight and I'm wondering if this "re-plumbing" manages somehow to evade or defeat the tractor's pressure control circuit and rely solely on the backhoe's pressure control circuit (possibly boosting the latter as well?). Or is he maybe looking to boost the tractor's hydraulic operating pressure overall? I'm wondering if the re-plumbing includes a new flow splitter/diverter/control valve to somehow achieve a dual pressure level scheme???

On the other hand, I may be WAY over-thinking this. If he feels that my use of a rear remote set to power the backhoe is reducing pressure and/or bypassing flow by large amounts, almost any other more direct delivery of flow and pressure might constitute the high percentage improvement he is suggesting. Maybe this is what he's thinking... and maybe he just wants to charge me a lot for his hoses and fittings?

I guess I wait another day or so to find out.

Dougster

 

[LAWALLSTRACTOR]

The only way I see to do this would be to plumb a valve with power beyond into the tractor pressure line before the tractor relief valve. The valve would feed the backhoe directly and power beyond would feed the rest of the tractor. The valve would have it's own relief valve, which would be set higher than the tractor relief setting. Being I am at home and not near my books, I think is arround 2350 PSI, and I believe the backhoe relief is set at 2500 PSI. I have never thought about this before, but this is the only way I could see it being done. I wonder if it would restrict flow to the rest of the tractor. I would like to hear what he comes up with. Please let us know

 

[Reg]

{Simplified}
Force is some function of hydraulic pressure, piston area and mechanical linkages.
Work is some function of that developed force and speed.

So, the magic bullet ?
If it isn't higher pressure or greater flow - Ahh, perhaps the tractor world NEEDS a miracle hydraulic oil additive ?
At $600 an implement... maybe some sort of pressure accumulators ?

Dunno, gotta go make a cuppla bux B4 the sun goes down.

later,

\R

 

[Dougster]

The only way I see to do this would be to plumb a valve with power beyond into the tractor pressure line before the tractor relief valve. The valve would feed the backhoe directly and power beyond would feed the rest of the tractor. The valve would have it's own relief valve, which would be set higher than the tractor relief setting. Being I am at home and not near my books, I think is arround 2350 PSI, and I believe the backhoe relief is set at 2500 PSI. I have never thought about this before, but this is the only way I could see it being done. I wonder if it would restrict flow to the rest of the tractor. I would like to hear what he comes up with. Please let us know

Well, we'll just have to wait and see. Your theory seems reasonable and mostly consistent with his hints... and yet it bothers me that you don't know about this incredible "magic" upgrade. If this mod was truly safe and legit, my guess is that you would have heard about it by now.

On the other hand, what about my theory that use of a rear remote is zapping pressure and/or bypassing flow? Is that possible? Could it be hurting me to such a degree??? If so, almost any more direct plumbing could be considered an "upgrade" to my current situation.

Dougster

 

[Dougster]

{Simplified} Force is some function of hydraulic pressure, piston area and mechanical linkages. Work is some function of that developed force and speed. So, the magic bullet ? If it isn't higher pressure or greater flow - Ahh, perhaps the tractor world NEEDS a miracle hydraulic oil additive ? At $600 an implement... maybe some sort of pressure accumulators ? Dunno, gotta go make a cuppla bux B4 the sun goes down.
later,
\R

I just don't know Reg. One way or another, it has got to be some way of delivering more usable pressure to the backhoe. For $600, it can't be a mere adjustment or "magic" oil. And he was very clear that this was an "alternative plumbing" arrangement... not a new pump. As Galen noted above, it would have to be a way of tapping into tractor hydraulic flow before the tractor's pressure control valve. Alternatively, as I have speculated, this dealer might just be thinking that using a rear remote right now is hurting me badly.

Dougster

 

[Dougster]

Well, the MMM ("magical mystery mod") may be no more than typical salesmanship and hype. It's starting to look like the MMM is no more than Mahindra and Bradco's new standard plumbing recommendation/kit for installation of backhoes on the 3510 and 4110 wherein a new selector valve has now replaced the switching of hoses at the PB port of the FEL. In fact, the FEL valve is taken out of the picture altogether now by tapping into the main supply hose before the FEL control valve. Clearly, use of this new kit would not leave the FEL or the remotes available for operation as I had been told.

But this dubious experience does still raise a very serious question: Am I currently experiencing excessive pressure drop or lost flow by using one of my two rear remotes to power the backhoe??? I guess this Mahindra dealer is saying "yes"! In fact, perhaps Mahindra and Bradco are now saying "yes"!

I find it interesting that Mahindra and Bradco did not simply locate their new selector valve in the PB line leaving the FEL still operable. Why the heck not??? I often use my FEL and backhoe within seconds of each other. I certainly wouldn't want to have to turn a selector valve back and forth each time I moved my tractor 4 feet on a trenching job.

Dougster

 

[Reg]

No, yes, well - sort of.
Running hoses back from a FEL power beyond port includes an impedance (resistance to flow). I think many tractors have outlets at the pump, some are connected with a couple of banjo bolts and a 2 inch or so hard line. As I understand it all the hydraulic oil flows through these BEFORE going to the FEL. They are typically used for rear remotes and/or back-hoe. I think of them as "Power Before" since the pressure outlet is straight from the pump so they ain't "beyond" anything.

If there is a magic plumbing trick I suspect that it is nothing more than taking the fluid through a BIG FAT HOSE from the point where the pressure is highest, i.e. AT THE PUMP and not after going forwards (through several feet of hose) to the FEL, through a valve block and doubling back (through even more feet of hose). I can't see this as co$ting ANYTHING "per implement", other than as a "business opportunity" to get in your wallet.

but whadda I know ?

 

[Dougster]

If there is a magic plumbing trick I suspect that it is nothing more than taking the fluid through a BIG FAT HOSE from the point where the pressure is highest, i.e. AT THE PUMP and not after going forwards (through several feet of hose) to the FEL, through a valve block and doubling back (through even more feet of hose). I can't see this as co$ting ANYTHING "per implement", other than as a "business opportunity" to get in your wallet.

Well, I'm finding it hard to believe that merely bypassing the FEL control valve and not utilizing a rear remote set is going to increase my available pressure at the backhoe by very much. I just don't get it. But I am now more willing than ever to fully instrument it and find out. This may not be the end of the story... I haven't spoken directly with the owner yet... but I find it hard to believe that this #15087 hydraulic kit alone could cost $600.00.

Dougster

 

[SPYDERLK]

Well, I'm finding it hard to believe that merely bypassing the FEL control valve and not utilizing a rear remote set is going to increase my available pressure at the backhoe by very much. I just don't get it. But I am now more willing than ever to fully instrument it and find out. This may not be the end of the story... I haven't spoken directly with the owner yet... but I find it hard to believe that this #15087 hydraulic kit alone could cost $600.00.

Dougster

According to the gauge I have on my pump outlet it costs 700psi to flow 17gpm back to the reservoir thru the FEL, 3pt, and remote valve bodies in the centered position. Assuming this holds in the remote valve flow position, an arrangement to bypass this entire restriction would make the BH faster and stronger at speed, but wouldnt affect overall strength much at lower pump delivery rates where line losses are a lot lower. My line losses seem to be around 200psi at 12gpm. Still some to gain - just not as much.
larry

 

[Tim_in_IA]

maybe the magic backhoe attachment is just a garden hose that shoots water into the hole every now and then to reduce friction???

 

[Dougster]

According to the gauge I have on my pump outlet it costs 700psi to flow 17gpm back to the reservoir thru the FEL, 3pt, and remote valve bodies in the centered position. Assuming this holds in the remote valve flow position, an arrangement to bypass this entire restriction would make the BH faster and stronger at speed, but wouldnt affect overall strength much at lower pump delivery rates where line losses are a lot lower. My line losses seem to be around 200psi at 12gpm. Still some to gain - just not as much.
larry

Those numbers are amazing Larry. Since I run the backhoe at 2,000 to 2,650 engine RPM (+/-) depending on the task at hand, and since I assume that my valves and lines are proportionally smaller than yours, it appears that similar high losses could be happening here as well. If so, there might be something to this "MMM" after all... but there is no way I am paying $600.00 for some hoses, fittings, brackets and a selector valve. I don't care if they are made out of gold.

All I can say is that tests, Tests, TESTS are badly needed here.

Dougster

 

[Dougster]

maybe the magic backhoe attachment is just a garden hose that shoots water into the hole every now and then to reduce friction???

Nope. I already tried that mod. Just made a muddy mess!!!

Dougster

 

[Savagepike]

In theory there is a way to increase the power of the backhoe (or fel for that matter) by manipulating the "plumbing", but it seems to me it would make the hydraulics move at a snails pace. More power and much slower vs. adequate power and sensible speed. I'll stick with the latter... but I think everything could always use just a little more power though

 

[Dougster]

In theory there is a way to increase the power of the backhoe (or fel for that matter) by manipulating the "plumbing", but it seems to me it would make the hydraulics move at a snails pace. More power and much slower vs. adequate power and sensible speed. I'll stick with the latter... but I think everything could always use just a little more power though

Well, it sounds like you are talking about larger diameter cylinders. Not sure how much I could do with that on the backhoe since I would be decreasing the design margins in the various structural components and hardware. I've wanted to take a close-up look at a 609 to see how much (if any) of the structure and hardware remains the same as my 509, but I've not yet had the opportunity. All I know right now is that they share the same buckets and a few other misc. features and options.

On the other hand, I've thought long and hard about increasing the diameter of the boom lift cylinders on my FEL by one notch. Every time I walk by a slightly beefier KMW loader, I find myself eyeballing (and sometimes even measuring) the lift cylinders for a potential fit. But until Jeremy changes his mind and gives me his explicit permission, I better obey his orders and stick with the lift cylinders that are on there now.

Dougster

 

[JerryG]

Doug,
Do you have a shop manual that shows the pressure and flow available at the remotes?

 

[shvl73]

On the other hand, I've thought long and hard about increasing the diameter of the boom lift cylinders on my FEL by one notch. Every time I walk by a slightly beefier KMW loader, I find myself eyeballing (and sometimes even measuring) the lift cylinders for a potential fit. But until Jeremy changes his mind and gives me his explicit permission, I better obey his orders and stick with the lift cylinders that are on there now.

Dougster

Aw, just go for it!
Though the risk could be your own modified version of a curved boom loader!

 

[Dougster]

Doug, Do you have a shop manual that shows the pressure and flow available at the remotes?

I do not. The shop manual that I do have (it's the "old sheet metal" version) is silent on that point.

Dougster

 

[Dougster]

Aw, just go for it! Though the risk could be your own modified version of a curved boom loader!

Oh wonderful!!! NOT!!!

No, I'm listening to Jeremy. He is Da Man and he says to leave it alone. It's pretty obvious that I not currently meeting the full published lifting capability spec, but I attribute that to a likely "too low" setting on the tractor's pressure control circuit. Again, this is something I need to check out and have adjusted if necessary.

Dougster