The Objective Superiority of JD in 32-46 HP

   / The Objective Superiority of JD in 32-46 HP #11  
Hi Glenn,

I have a question about your Assertion #2. Where did you get the information to compare JD, NH, and Kubota loaders? We have had a few threads on this, and it seems that the Big 3 like to quote their loader capacities in different ways to keep us guessing. In the brochures I have, JD quotes theirs at the bucket pivot. NH doesn't say how their capacities are measured, but I think we were able to establish that it was at the bucket center (?), per some Society of Agricultural Engineers test method. Kubota quotes their numbers at the pivot, at the bucket center, and at 500 mm forward.

The other thing to think about is that all of the quoted numbers are to full lift height - the actual lift capacity is some function of lift height. It's possible that a loader's spec. lift capacity (at full height) can be penalized because it has a higher lift height than a competitor.

Rob
 
   / The Objective Superiority of JD in 32-46 HP #12  
/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

That was a quick edit, Glenmac!
 
   / The Objective Superiority of JD in 32-46 HP #13  
Now Glenn,

Have you considered maybe another line of work if we ever get all our tax problems squared away... like maybe a Chef... your sure like to stir it up.../w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

<font color=blue>...I'm not sure that you can get a hydraulically independent belly mower on the 4500-4700's. ...</font color=blue>

Yes, the entire John Deere 4000 series has mid-PTO's up to the 4700 @ 41.5 PTO HP, with multiple mower options available.

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   / The Objective Superiority of JD in 32-46 HP #14  
GlenMac,

[[[Subjectively, I happen to like Deere the least and actually hope to get rebutted.]]]

Thinking outside of the box, "the box" being the specified "objective comparisons", I'm wondering what you will DO with those pesky real-world "subjective" likes/dislikes which you confess to having, when the time comes to lay down your money.

At last, an answer("Yes!") to the question "Do lawyers ever smell the roses?".

Which, alas, only raises another; "Do they LIKE the fact that they smell roses?" Or is it just a distraction from their "real" world (read "objectivity")?

(Glen this is meant to be a friendly "elbow", as well as an expression of real curiosity, not a "kill-the-lawyers" personal attack.)

Speaking for myself, some subjective issues were definitely considerable elements in my decision (fortunately not at odds, in my case, with the objective ones you point out).

Being (by now I think) a true TBN'er, I'll break your "rules" forthwith, and mention those subjective elements:

I don't like the idea of riding around thinking "This is STUPID!", every time I look at my ass-backwards turn-brake pedals.

With apologies to NH owner's, to me (to ME) the super-sleek swoop-nosed models (better visibility or not) just don't look like TRACTORS.( Do I need to say "To me!" again, here?)

The fel controls on the K's look "added-on" or "afterthought-ish", whereas on the JD, they look unified, "of-a-piece" so to speak, designwise, ...as if they were considered in the overall design, and are right at-hand, where they belong.( This applies to the 4600/4700 models, which are the ones I was looking at.) perhaps I would agree with your opinions about the crowding on the smaller models.

All this subjective stuff matters however much I DECIDE it does, which, of course, can't be objectively measured.

But knowing yourself well-enough to decide how important subjective issues really ARE to YOU, is the trick.

Every time I walk up to something that is an ugly or poor design(in MY opinion), I think "Boy, that could have done so much better."(usually in harsher terms) /w3tcompact/icons/mad.gif

On the contrary, when I walk up to a well-designed piece of equipment (and that includes, for ME, esthetics), I get that "Aaahhh!..Nice!" feeling. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

That's PLEASURE. It's pride-of-ownership. And if there is a price tag on the things that give us pleasure (JD design, for example,) ...what's new about that? And I'll admit that the old JD "green" traditionally associated with American farming probably tugged at me a little too(however American-made or not they are today). I should say, though, that none of these "likes" would have persuaded me to buy what I thought was an inferior machine, objectively -speaking. The money involved was too much for cavalier "tossing around". Fortunately, with my tastes, it turned out that it seemed poissible to have my cake and enjoy it too.


The objective focus of "the box" may prove that JD has some edges, in some areas, over the competition. But that won't change the practical fact that All of the current-crop of "big name" tractors will probably do the job you want done, if their size is appropriate to the task.

So, when it comes down to being satisfied with your purchase(which is what I think we're all REALLY after), This "one man's opinion" is that subjective likes or dislikes are only unimportant IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY.

If you DO, then they may be the very factors that make your choice "right" or "wrong" FOR YOU!

It feels good to feel good!(Duh!)

Here's hoping that's what happens everytime you look at your new "partner", whatever color you choose! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Larry
 
   / The Objective Superiority of JD in 32-46 HP #15  
If you only use truly objective criteria in selecting products, how many of us would be driving the car we're driving, living in the house we live in, eating the food we eat, wearing the clothes we're wearing . . . . oh well, the list would be endless./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Bird
 
   / The Objective Superiority of JD in 32-46 HP #16  
Rob,

I'll volunteer this info on loader capacity, from the JD loader operators' manual and the loader info available for Kubota on Carver's web site.

JD 410 LOADER
Max. lift height at pivot pin: 74"
Lift capacity (500mm foward): 781 lbs
Breakout force: (500mm foward) 1500 lbf
At pivot point (2257 lbf)
Overall height in carry position: 46"
Rollback angle: 25 degrees
Bucket dump: 55"
Dump angle: 45 deg.
Reach @ max hgt: 24.8"
Raising time: 2.5 sec.
Lowering time: 2.0
Rollback time: 1.9 sec.
Dump time: 1.8 sec.
Flow: 7.3 GPM
Digging Depth: 6"
Weight: 566 lbs

LA 352
Max. lift height at pivot pin: 69.7"
Lift capacity 500mm foward: 670 lbs
Breakout force: 1336 lbf (?)
Overall height in carry position: 45.7"
Rollback angle: 24 degrees
Bucket dump: 51.6"
Dump angle: 45 deg.
Reach @ max hgt: 25.0
Raising time : 3.1 sec.
Lowering time: 2.0 sec.
Rollback time: 2.6 sec.
Dump time: 1.8 sec.
Rated Flow: 4.4 GPM
Digging Depth: 3.1"
Weight: 875 lbs

I also have the spec's on the 420 loader too.

Just trying to be objective./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

DFB


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   / The Objective Superiority of JD in 32-46 HP #17  
Thanks, DFB. Not that it really matters, but . . . I question whether the Lift Capacity and Breakout Force (both '500 mm forward') are measured the same way between the two loaders. The capacity at the pivot pin for the LA352 is 925 lb, and for the 410 it is 882 lb, so it doesn't make sense to me why the 410 would have an advantage at different distances out.

Rob
 
   / The Objective Superiority of JD in 32-46 HP #18  
I did all the numbers as well Glenn and looked at all the models available. I am the one who gets the best deal for the money and I'm not a real brand loyalist. I want the most bang for the buck period. I have three different brands of cars, three different brands of equipment, and when I built my house I had two things in mind, cost and function. When I built my latest barn I looked at every way imaginable to save money and get the most barn for the buck. So unlike what Bird had said I do look for the best deal for the money, which isn't always the cheapest way to go. For example a small case in point was shown last weekend when we were screwing on the roof on the new barn. I had two dewalt cordless drills, another guy had one and four other guys had black and decker, 2 milwaukee, and another brand that is light blue. Anyway after three hours of screwing the only ones that would keep up were the dewalts. All the others the batteries were drained and we were down to the three dewalts for most of the rest of the day. BTW they were all 14.4 and 18 volts.

So with that background said I looked at every aspect of the big three and got prices for all that were where I wanted. For what I was looking for the JD beat everyone else in every category and was the best deal in my area. I looked at everything and broke every category down into dollars per horsepower, per pump capacity, etc. and clearly the JD was the best deal for myself. The reason I bought the 4600 was that it was the exact same tractor as the 4700 with the exception of hp. I couldn't see the extra couple grand for 4 hp and that's why I got the 4600. My vote is with you Glenn and I came to the exact same conclusions after all the objective data was evaluated.

BTW I originally was going to buy a kubota 4610, but hard numbers showed deere to be a better buy.

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   / The Objective Superiority of JD in 32-46 HP
  • Thread Starter
#19  
John, the issue is not whether mid-pto's or mowers are available on the 4500-4700, but whether an scv is available to lift the mid-mower independently of the 3ph. You really gotta learn how to do online research.

Larry, I concede that the split brakes, objectively, belong on the left side with hydro. There is no functional reason to have them on the right, as Kubota does. Note that NH has them on the wrong side up to the TC33 but puts them on the correct side from the TC35 up. Why? Having said this, I think split brakes are largely irrelevant to the vast majority of compact users.

Larry, you also argue that each person's subjective feelings are an objective fact to him or her. Tricky.

Bird, did you forget spouses in your list?

Wheeldog, great cross-examination tactic: question the authority of the supposed sources of information. I am at the mercy of the same dubiously reliable sources as the rest of you: marketing brochures and dealers. But you strike at what I already know to be one of the most poisonous aspects of supposed objective statistics: deceptive weights and measures.

Looking at the marketing brochures for the largest loaders available, the K 681 loader has a "lift capacity at full height" of 1499 lbs. The NH 16LA has a "lift capacity" of 2000 lbs. The JD 460 has a "lift capacity at pivot pin" of 2330 lbs. I pointed out to a JD dealer that the JD Equipment Purchasing Guide, a less circulated piece of literature, states that the JD 460 loader has a "lift capacity" of 1705 lbs.--and could he please explain the discrepancy. He couldnt. He was genuinely confused. He then looked in his secret dealer manual, an uncirculated piece of literature, and it showed the 1705 measurement being taken at the front edge of the bucket and the 2330 measurement being indeed taken at the pivot pin. So, what has JD done? They have put the highest possible measurement in the most widely circulated literature and buried the details in the dealer guide. I dont know where K or NH measure their bucket lift statistics.

So, Wheeldog, I am prepared to concede that we do not know whose loader has the best lift capacity, and I therefore remove this as an argument in favor of Deere. (Green fans, your are welcome to argue this item back in your column.) Was even the estimable M. Chishti gulled by these misleading loader statistics when he awarded tractor of the year to the 4300, assiduously pointing out that none of the competitors were within 200 lbs of JD's loader lift capacities. (He was looking at the smaller loaders, but the JD pivot pin vs. lip measurement ambiguity affects those loaders, too.)

Lastly on loaders, the JD breakout force remains the highest. I confess that I dont understand breakout force, although have an vague sense that it is the combined force of lifting and curling, but this could be all wrong. So, JD can retain this loader crumb.
 
   / The Objective Superiority of JD in 32-46 HP #20  
The noise factor: JD clearly has more engine noise than Kubota. I dont know about NH. I prefer a quiet tractor with less engine noise. (Yes, this is somewhat subjective but I have experience with both.)

Quick detach bucket: IMHO, all three compact tractor companies are wrong on this point. Buckets should use a universal skid-steer for their mounts. I have been told Kubota is moving in this direction. JD is quick attach but specific for their tractor. Universal skid steer would allow use of rental and commercially available attachments at a lower cost. Woods loaders are headed in the right direction.

Backhoe: The kubota L4560 (designed for the 3710, 4310 and 4610) has a 108" digging depth, 4920 lbs bucket force (6060 lbs in the power hole) and 2430 lbs dipper stick. Is the JD 48 hoe superior? JD-bucket = 3730lbs, dipper = 2435lbs. For me I prefer after market backhoes. Proprietary hoes are too make and model specific and cost more.

Weight: JD for the same HP do weigh more than the comparable Kubota. For me this is usually a negative point. I finish mow with a 3710 and do not want to have a heavier tractor. For me it is easier to add weight (blade, scraper, backhoe etc) if needed. For most heavy chores, none of the compact tractors have enough weight for the necessary traction.

Subjective subjects: JD has a springier and more comfortabe seat? What kind of butt-o-meter was this test performed on? Springier can mean the operator bobs up and down all day -annoying.

Loader capacities: When compared at the pivot pin, the lift capacity of the Kubota loaders edge out or equal JD in all sizes. JD does offer 4 sizes of loaders and Kubota 3 sizes in the 30-46hp range. Heights vary a few inches between different models and is not a factor.
 

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