The surprising truth about motor oils

   / The surprising truth about motor oils #81  
Sorry to disappoint you but there is no fine print for oil changes. The Oil Life monitor takes into consideration Vehicle, Engine, Ambient and Engine Temperature, Time, RPM, and a other items that I have heard about but did not really care about. If you would like to read the maintenance schedule here is a HTML format owners manual linked from www.mygmlink.com. The easier to read PDF format is only available after you register your vehicle you GM vehicle. The maintenance schedule is pretty much the same between all GM vehicles with a few differences primarily based on transmission.

Kurt
 
   / The surprising truth about motor oils #82  
No magic, just calcualtions... Ford has it too, but I dont really put allot of faith in the trip computers for mileage either. This is basicly a dumby light that comes on telling the nut behind the wheel that he missed his oil change.. Yes it changes intervals for conditions, but its just a guide.... If you trust it, more power to you, some guys have better luck than others. Allot of guys wouldnt think of running dino oil as long as I do, but I justify it to myself... At the end of the day, thats all that matters.... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / The surprising truth about motor oils #83  
Ford's is an idiot light (from what I have heard from a dealer). A light that comes on at a predetermined mileage interval to remind you to do maintenance. GM does not use mileage AT ALL. It uses Time, Temperature, RPM and other variables. Some vehicles have a % indicator that starts at 100% and slowly decreases to either 10 or 5% (depends on who you ask) remaining when it turns the light on to let you know that it is time for the oil change. This is a continual calc. Not an average of each drive cycle. MB and BMW (from what I have heard and read about on a limited basis) that works simular to GM's but not at the level of GM's system (which is patented by the way). There is plenty of information about this on the internet, a lot from GM (the most detail) and a lot of other information people that should give you an idea that it is not just an idiot lights.

If you can provide me information where Ford is more than an idiot light, I will gladly read it, research it and place it some where in memory for future reference.

here is an article that talks about the some of the system and list Ford's system as "a settable, odometer-driven oil reminder light", this article does bring up some good points about other contaminates, which is why oil should still be checked on a regular basis. This is one of the pitfalls of extended oil changes. Most drivers attitudes towards their cars today is Drive It and Forget It, they wouldn't even add gas if they thought they could get away with it /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Kurt
 
   / The surprising truth about motor oils #84  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( they wouldn't even add gas if they thought they could get away with it /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif. )</font>

I know I wouldn't add gas if I thought I could get away with it..
 
   / The surprising truth about motor oils #85  
Kurt,
I dont intend to get defensive about it... Honestly I think its a bit over the top. Unless the great GM has come up with a way to actually analyze the oil in the crankcase, its an idiot light. It is built on calculations period. It may be more advanced than the Ford system, I dont argue that.

( this is all it says for an '05 LS
Normal Operation

The instrument cluster tracks the engine run time and mileage. The message center uses that information to display the remaining interval until the next recommended maintenance procedure <font color="blue"> </font> .)

You seem to have much more knowledge on the system than I do, that can be chalked up to the desire to disect the system. Personally I think there are much greater things to worry about rather than how long can I possibly leave this oil in my engine before a calculation tells me its no good. I want that stuff out of my crankcase at reasonable intervals, 25-30k is not reasonable. no matter how good the oil is...

Just for curiosity, not that it would change my habits either way,but have you ever gotten a sample tested after the light tells you its bad? If its less than 10k mi in 6mo time, I can see where it might still be marginaly ok for the "slick" properties, but I would be interested in the contamination..
 
   / The surprising truth about motor oils #86  
No, I have never had my oil tested. About 2years ago when I started to use the OLM I did a LOT of research to make sure that it would work. I had read information here about testing oil, information in the older owners manuals about the change interval, and found post on some bb where people indicated they had tested their oil and I could find nowhere where the light came on in a longer time frame than it should. Actually the opposite was true... It came on quite a bit sooner than it should. (Just to give you an idea, my wife says I research to much.) Then, I took all information that I had and thought about the whole process. Based on my driving habits, 30,000+ a year, the old owners manual would recommend 7000 mi (Mid 60's information in reality), changes in oil technology, changes in the engine (FI, better rings, emissions, air filtration, PCV enhancements, rockers, etc.), and other information that has long left my mind.

Probably the least important factor was information from GM. I prefer to use information from outside sources of the person/company selling the product and try to find out what an actual user(s) is saying. I have a habit of reading the bad of a product, since that is usually where you can start to find the real truth. It takes time, but done correctly, balance both sides and truth will find itsway to the top. This is where GM's OLM surprised me, there was very little negitive to be found. The biggest negative that I found was that it did not take into account premium oils (sny/syn blends).

Just so you know, I really don't care when somebody changes their oil or the type of oil that they use, I just can't stand personal opinions being passed as facts. We have all seen that happen on this and other boards, the only time that I ever post to those types of messages is when I have verifiable proof of the mis-information. This is one of those times.

I am not trying to say that anybody here is intentionally not telling the truth, just that they may not know the truth and are speaking based on incorrect or unverified information, strong personal preferrences (sny/dino oils, gear/hst, color, you get the idea) or a number of other possible reasons. (please no flames as none intended.)

Unless more information is wanted to gain knowledge (and I think I have passed all of the information that I have). We can debate this for a long time with the general consesus of:
1. It just can't work and I will keep changing my oil every so often with this type of oil.

2. (me) I use it, It seems to work, If it doesn't, the little bit of money that I save now I will pay later and then some /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif. My Money, My Choice, My Time /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Kurt
 
   / The surprising truth about motor oils #87  
HGM: Personally..I dont see any problem with trusting a $4500 car/truck/ engine to a $3 computer chip made in Singapore.....do you?
 
   / The surprising truth about motor oils #88  
Sully,

I see the point of better oil lasting longer.. And I totally agree. Things have changed soo much over the past 50yrs and it only stands to reason that the oil will last longer than most change it. For longevity purposes, I see todays dino oil to last as long as early synthetics(thats not the issue).. I typicly run my dino oil twice as long as we recommend, I'll be changing my Rangers oil today(7500mi). As I mentioned before, its practicly all highway and I feel it is closer to ideal conditions than most vehicles are subject to. Not sure I should recomend this to anyone, but I believe its fine. The oil doesnt get exceptionally dark or thin( I havent tested it either)..

The thing that got me started in this post is that GM has some magical device that lets theri engines go 30k before an oil change under any driving situation. Dont think so. If someone has had luck with it, I wish them the best. I also believe they will be let down at somepoint. If its under waranty GM will let them know its their baby..If not, we'll all know why GM is having financial troubles.. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Kent, your points are well taken. I have a feeling we're a little closer in feeling here than our transcripts show. With that said, I dont trust the calculated oil change interval. Would I use it, probably.. Thats just because I get bussy and forget to change the oil on a timely bassis. Hence the idiot light..If my calculations are right, by hours I might be at the 10-12000mi mark at 200hrs(when I should change my oil).. This is too long for me to trust the oil, its relatively cheap, I just change it... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / The surprising truth about motor oils #89  
fyi........




</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Oil Life Monitor --
How Does It Know?
How long will oil last in an engine? What reduces the oil’s effectiveness? When should it be changed?
Lubrication engineers perform a number of tests to answer these kinds of questions. Vehicles are operated under prescribed conditions, and periodically a sample of the oil is taken into the laboratory for analysis. When the condition of the oil is no longer satisfactory, the mileage is noted. From controlled testing like this, engineers in the past have determined two sets of mileage numbers, one number for normal driving and the other for severe conditions. Severe conditions can mean that the vehicle is driven hot (for example, pulling a trailer up a mountain) or is driven such that the oil never warms completely (for example, trips less than 5 or 10 miles in a winter climate). It is then up to the owner to decide whether their own driving is normal or severe and to change the oil accordingly. Now, science and technology have found a way of taking the guesswork out of the picture. GM is installing an oil life monitor in an increasing number of new vehicles. Using a simple indicator lamp or readout on the instrument panel, this system notifies the driver when to change the oil. The February and March 2000 issues of TechLink explain how to reset these monitors.

Here’s information on how an oil life monitor works.
Additives
Straight oil is not an ideal lubricant in an engine. A package of additives is needed to give the oil properties it does not naturally have or to enhance its natural properties. Some of the tasks accomplished by additives:
- viscosity modifiers, to keep the oil the proper thickness over a wide range of operating temperatures
- anti-oxidant, to keep the oil from thickening
- corrosion inhibitors, to protect engine components
- anti-wear
- anti-foam
- detergents, to suspend solid particles.
What Makes Oil "Wear Out?"
If you were to start out with a crankcase full of fresh, clean oil, and drove the vehicle for a period of time, eventually the oil would have to be changed. During this time, what can change fresh oil into "worn out" oil?
First, dilution. When gasoline is burned in the combustion chamber, the by-products include a lot of water. Some of this water can find its way into the crankcase through piston ring blow-by. If the engine is cold, and if combustion is not perfectly complete, a small amount of acid is formed. It, too, can blow-by into the oil. You don’t need to be a top-notch scientist to realize that water and acid aren’t good things to pump through the lubrication system of the engine. If an engine is run long enough for the engine oil to warm, the water
and acids will evaporate and not accumulate. But, during very short trips in cold weather, water and acids can enter the engine oil and cause the oil to "wear out." Second, the degradation of the oil and its additives. We mentioned earlier that a number of additives are put into oil to improve its performance. If these additives are degraded or decomposed, the oil is no longer capable of doing all of its jobs properly. Oil with
degraded additives can become thick and dark. Additives become degraded by exposure to extreme heat. There are two places a lot of heat can reach the oil. One is near the combustion chamber. Oil at the top piston ring is exposed to very high temperature. And some bearing surfaces can also put a lot of heat into the oil at high operating temperatures. So, degradation of additives from high temperature operation is the second factor that can cause oil to "wear out."
How Can Operating Conditions be Used to Predict Oil Life?
Using carefully controlled laboratory tests, it’s possible for lubrication engineers to measure how long it takes to dilute engine oil during cold operation. And it’s possible to measure how long it takes for high temperature
to degrade the additives. We usually think of measuring time in hours and minutes, but for an engine, the
amount of revolutions it has run is also a good measure. So for the purposes of oil life, time is measured in engine revolutions. Engineers like to talk in terms of models. A model is a way to describe something
mathematically. It’s possible to create an oil life model that very carefully matches the results of analyzing the oil in a laboratory. The oil life monitor, then, is based on a model. A computer chip in the Powertrain
Control Module is loaded with a certain number of engine revolution counts. The count for each engine/vehicle combination is determined by testing. As the engine runs, each revolution is subtracted from the remaining count in the oil life monitor. When the count reaches zero, the instrument panel light comes on. But, here’s the clever part. When the various input sensors detect that the engine is running under either cold or hot conditions, it subtracts extra counts (penalties) for each engine revolution. So, the conditions
that cause the oil to "wear out" make the counter run down faster. When the oil is changed, it’s necessary to
reset the oil life monitor (see the February and March 2000 issues of TechLink) and the countdown begins again.

NOTE: Synthetic oil resists "wearing out" better than mineral oil, so the oil life monitor
is set to account for this, but only on vehicles that are specified for synthetic oil from the
factory -- the Corvette, for instance. Using synthetic oil in other vehicles is certainly not
harmful, but the oil life monitor will continue to count down as though the engine contained
mineral oil.
- Shirley Schwartz contributed to this article

)</font>
 
   / The surprising truth about motor oils #90  
Greg,

I do agree that we are probably pretty close and enjoy this discussing (better than some of the "discussions" in the past about oil /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif).

As for GM's financial problems, part of it might be going above what the warranty specifies, I was talking to a co-worker of my wife about 2 years ago and he was surprised when a person (don't remember the relationship) that he knows had a transmission problems in a Vibe (read as Toyota) and GM picked up half of the tab even though he had been out of warranty by some time, approx 10 -14000mi if I remember correctly. (FYI, I hate to relay this type of a friend of a friend info, but will make an exception in this case since I heard the same type of things from the service manager from where we bought our Envoy.) From what I gather it is really up to the dealership if this gets offered. So yes, a good dealer does matter for both cars and tractors. (Hey, this post got back to what TBN does best /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

I think there is a slight misunderstanding. You mentioned about 30,000 mi between oil changes. The only time I ever see anything anywhere about 30,000+ mile changes is when reading about that "A*****" oil name. (no wars here please /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif). When I mention 30,000+ mi a year is what I drive NOT when I nor GM recommends an oil change (at least for Dino oil, I have not seen or looked for information when a vehicle is equipped with synthetic oil from the factory.) The furthest distance that I have seen ever listed for Dino oil is 15,000 mi with a disclaimer "under the correct conditions" and from that I saw something that basically said nonstop highway driving with the engine oil in the correct temp operating range. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I would venture to say that some oil can probably go over 30,000 mi, but if a person is doing that they should have their oil tested, filters changed, and oil topped off on a regular basis. For me that would be just change the oil and be done with it. Although I am somebody that tries to keep up on maintenance for my car, I would much rather just Drive it and Forget It. Better yet NO GAS NEEDED either /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Sully,
If you don't think that GM has spent time to make sure that this works, that is fine. Continue to buy whatever you want, for me that is GM. I know many people that rely on the domestic auto industry (directly and indirectly) for a living and will continue to support them one vehicle at a time. It also appears that Honda is using some version of an OLM in the Ridgeline.

If I think about it, before the next Oil Change is due on one of my vehicles that I use the OLM I will get the oil test kit, have it tested, and post the results here. I know this will not make anybody a believer but at least we can see how close it is.

Kurt
 

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