The WICKED Root & Debris GRAPPLE!!!!!!!

[Xfaxman]

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Island, you keep talking about thumbs. How about changing that discussion to mittens? Your single lid is like a mitten, while a dual is like a glove. We "evolved" (not really) to have 4 independently actuated fingers in addition to our opposable thumb - why is that? Why not just one finger and one thumb? Can you not grasp more firmly around uneven objects using multiple fingers? YES, you can.

I have a one finger and one thumb Grapple.

Works very well.

 

[IslandTractor]

A wider dual lid actually stabilizes imbalanced/irregular/offset loads better. More square inches of piston area (two cylinders over one) means greater clamping force as well.

I've never said anything about a CUT. I have a full size utility tractor.

Island, you keep talking about thumbs. How about changing that discussion to mittens? Your single lid is like a mitten, while a dual is like a glove. We "evolved" (not really) to have 4 independently actuated fingers in addition to our opposable thumb - why is that? Why not just one finger and one thumb? Can you not grasp more firmly around uneven objects using multiple fingers? YES, you can.

I don't want to push the grasp/human hand analogy too far but I understand your question. Sure, you can consider a grapple with thumb to be like a mitten rather than glove but remember when we wear a glove we still use only one thumb, it's just that our thumb, unlike a grapple thumb, is opposable so can pivot to touch individual fingers. Grapples don't do that so are more like mittens. More accurately, a grapple functions like a child under six months of age grasping something. They scoop things into their hand and don't use individual fingers. Only after six months of age is the pincer grasp possible that permit us to pick up a single raisin. Grapples work like the younger kids that can only scoop and close their fist on the load. I'm sure there is some specialized mechanical hand out there that could be the basis of a really high end NASA grapple capable of pincer grasp with an opposable thumb but most of us seem to function just fine with the "dumb" thumb version on CUTs.

Remember too that your glove analogy assumes that the FINGERS are moveable. Bottom grapple tines are not independently movable with a so "wrapping fingers around an uneven object" isn't possible.

Clamping force isn't critical with most grapple operations at least using the common open bottom grapple type like the Wicked grapple or like mine. The open bottom or L shaped grapple is a pretty good copy of the human hand used as a scoop with a thumb to secure the load. If a child imitates a grapple and scoops some raisins and holds their palm up when they release their thumb, the raisins stay in the palm. Gravity keeps the load in place. However, when the child uses pincer grasp to pick up a single raisin and then releases the thumb, the raisin falls to the floor. The clamshell grapple with a full length top hinged lid or a 4n1 bucket operates more like a pincer. The point is just that the upper lid, for most operations with an open bottom grapple, just serves to keep the load from falling forward and out of the grapple. Gravity does the rest. For that reason, clamping pressure is not that critical for carrying wood, stumps, etc. Clamping pressure is more important when pulling something out of the ground from above like a stump or big rock that isn't really in the grapple but only grasped by the pressure. Clamping pressure is also relevant when more than half the weight of the load is actually in front of the grapple as with a big stump. I haven't had trouble with clamping pressure using just a single lid. Note my photo below of the >one ton rock clamped on just one end. That is how I pulled the rock out of the ground. Clamping pressure was surely important there and it was strong enough that I flared out the tips of the 3/8" steel lid (nothing a little heat and hammer couldn't fix). The photo of the big log shows that most of the weight is inside the grapple so the clamping pressure is less important for that load.

A wider grapple does provide a wider base for a load to sit. I suppose in theory a ten foot grapple would hold a twenty foot log with more stability than a four foot grapple but as a practical matter, a four foot grapple is fine. Indeed, if you think about an excavator lifting trees using a thumb/grapple, those are only a couple of feet wide yet do a fine job of grasping and holding a huge tree. It's all about getting the midpoint balance. Width of platform is less important but as you point out is certainly a factor. I wouldn't want to move a 25ft log using a six inch wide grapple but moving 25-30 foot trees with a 4ft wide grapple is no problem. See photos.

 

[Jim Timber]

You look at this from such a closed mind. No wonder you cannot see...

Turn your hand over. Fingers on top, thumb on the bottom = now you have a two fingered grapple that can vary it's clamping force around an odd shape. When I have the mouth of my grapple aimed at the ground, that the fixed tines are towards the tractor or not is irrelevant.

 

[IslandTractor]

You look at this from such a closed mind. No wonder you cannot see...

Turn your hand over. Fingers on top, thumb on the bottom = now you have a two fingered grapple that can vary it's clamping force around an odd shape. When I have the mouth of my grapple aimed at the ground, that the fixed tines are towards the tractor or not is irrelevant.

Actually I did discuss that. Fingers on top and thumb on the bottom is a clamshell grapple or 4n1. Same as the little kids pincer grasp of a raisin. Doesn't hold anything unless the jaws are clamped and can only hold multiple logs if the biggest log is at the very bottom.

Clamshells are not as popular/common because of this top hinge limitation and because they are more expensive. Nice for raking up debris/brush but not nearly as versatile as an open bottom or L shaped grapple for digging or grappling hard stuff.

 

[Jim Timber]

No, it's not a clamshell grapple or 4 in 1: it's a regular root grapple when you aim the mouth at the ground. This pic isn't quite there, but you get the idea:

Wider grip is more stable:

Uneven load has firm grip:

Loose material gripped on either side of the clump:

To each their own.

 

[EverythingAttachments]

Dual is pretty helpful for this also. Not ganging up on Island....remember, i'm not biased.

That plate steel on the Wicked Lids also helps contain the load of loose split wood.
Travis

 

[IslandTractor]

Jim I understand. I do exactly the same thing with my grapple. I "roll over" many loads of brush and pick them up from the top rather than scooping from the bottom. Whether the "thumb" is oriented forward or backward shouldn't make any difference. I pick up exactly the same types of loads that your demonstrate and have posted numerous photos of same. I guess I'm just not understanding something about your point regarding how two lids would make any difference with any of the loads you displayed.

I think sometimes you guys with double lid grapples see that your lids close differently and you then wonder how a single lid would handle such a load. I guess the simple point is that it doesn't matter whether the single lid closes at the same place, it will contact the load and squeeze it into the grapple with just as effective clamping. If I imagine a wildly asymmetric object like some stumps are, there are times I will chose to grapple from the side of the stump and other times from the rootball or cut stump side. Whichever orientation will give me the most balanced load for transport. But I have simply never found an object I cannot clamp.

 

[Helitech]

Jim I understand. I do exactly the same thing with my grapple. I "roll over" many loads of brush and pick them up from the top rather than scooping from the bottom. Whether the "thumb" is oriented forward or backward shouldn't make any difference. I pick up exactly the same types of loads that your demonstrate and have posted numerous photos of same. I guess I'm just not understanding something about your point regarding how two lids would make any difference with any of the loads you displayed.

I think sometimes you guys with double lid grapples see that your lids close differently and you then wonder how a single lid would handle such a load. I guess the simple point is that it doesn't matter whether the single lid closes at the same place, it will contact the load and squeeze it into the grapple with just as effective clamping. If I imagine a wildly asymmetric object like some stumps are, there are times I will chose to grapple from the side of the stump and other times from the rootball or cut stump side. Whichever orientation will give me the most balanced load for transport. But I have simply never found an object I cannot clamp.

No more than I have used mine.....this is the same direction for use that I'm headed. I push them tight and then rollover on top and clamp. Seems to work pretty good.

 

[4570Man]

I also push bush up and then roll the grapple over it and clamp. I also pick logs up from the top. It causes less ground disturbance than trying to get under them. Two lids are better then one, but one appears to work.

 

[IslandTractor]

I also push bush up and then roll the grapple over it and clamp. I also pick logs up from the top. It causes less ground disturbance than trying to get under them. Two lids are better then one, but one appears to work.

Note that EA lids are wider than mine. I'd think they work better but mine has been no problem.

Also, another advantage of picking up logs or trees from the top is that you can better judge whether the load is balanced.