Things you just have to have to start farming...

[Spiveyman]

YES! I had almost this exact same discussion with my business partner Friday. I was reading on one of the links you posted about how cattle have such a great memory so you should make their first experience a good one. We need to brand about 35 bull calves, but we don't want that to be the very first experience through the chute. So we're going to do basically what you mentioned in your post. We're going to set it up so that we can get the whole herd in a pen, then move them through the alley and sweep system, basically just following a bucket with grain, through the head gate and into another pen. Then feed them there. We are going to do this several times (not sure how long is enough) before we actually start catching them to give them the worming meds, tags, and brands.

As for the horns, we are leaving them in tact. Most people see them as a big problem, but that's half the point of raising Longhorns. There's no way we'd poll them. (not sure if that's the correct terminology there) We love the horns, seeing them grow is half the fun. And if you train them properly the horns shouldn't be a problem. Also, there is a demand for the horns and skulls. We make a pretty decent dollar off of them. We get plenty of pressure from family and friends in this neck of the woods to get rid of the horns, but I'm surprised to hear that from a Texan! See, here's one of our little fella's, I can't imagine him without those budding horns:

 

[texasjohn]

OK... so I give in.... you can't eat the horns or hides... but you CAN sell them

Hey... those would make pretty good team roping steers here in Texas

The animals will tell you when they are familar with the pen setup.....they'll go thru it easily with little pressure from you... strong, strong suggestion... I bet you have a favorite cow...she's your favorite because she always does stuff right... goes where you want, is gente, will follow well, etc...

USE HER... and maybe a couple of others first and train them to go thru thru the maze first.... then, include them with your group of younger stuff when you are teaching them the maze and how to eat a few cubes.... they will follow the cows....and you will most likely avoid having to chouse/cowboy/booger the animals to go thru the maze.... yes, the first experience is very imprinting... if it can be done without getting stuff excited/scared, then you have won a MAJOR victory in how you will be able to handle the stock in future working efforts.

Recommend that you do this with two people who know cattle. One to lead stuf thru the chutes and into the pen and keep stuff interested and calm in the pen. The other to kinda encourage, gently, the hangers-back to follow stuff into the chutes and on thru.... perfection would be for one of the older animals to lead out...followed by maybe half of the less experienced stuff, then another older animal, then the rest of the stuff.... and then one final older animal...to lead that last laggard into the chute system.

After the animals are moving rather smoothly thru the pen system, you will be able to work them...two to four times may be enough... six times should be enough to train any laggards.... and it is completely surprising.... after patterning, you can brand them one day...and put them back thru the same pen and chute setup the next day and they don't seem to recall the previous day's events... but rather are just as docile going thru the chute as they were before they were branded in it.

Note... a polled animal naturally and genetically has no horns, or possibly only scurs which do not attach themselves to the skull. If horns are removed and not allowed to let grow, the animal is called "dehorned" . The polled gene occurs naturally occasionally among horned animals... and it is prized by some...thus you have the "polled" breeds: polled herfords, black angus are all naturally polled, etc... There is strong evidence that the polled gene is closely linked to a lazy/sloppy prepuce (undesirable).

 

[Spiveyman]

OK... so I give in.... you can't eat the horns or hides... but you CAN sell them

Ha! Operative word there is can. That doesn't mean we do sell enough to really warrant the hassle. I wish that were the case, but even if we couldn't sell them, we love the horns. One of our unofficial company slogans is "Real Cattle Have Horns." We had aprons printed up with our logo and that slogan to give away at grocery store events and to poke fun at polled breeds. (Thanks for the info on polled vs. dehorned)

...two to four times may be enough... six times should be enough to train any laggards.... and it is completely surprising.... after patterning, you can brand them one day...and put them back thru the same pen and chute setup the next day and they don't seem to recall the previous day's events... but rather are just as docile going thru the chute as they were before they were branded in it.

Wow, I sure hope you are right. That would be great since we don't really want to wait another month to brand and tag them. If we can condition them to use the chutes calmly in a couple weeks that would be very helpfull.

 

[texasjohn]

Work 駑 every day... same time of day.... get them used to the time....(later, the time won't matter once they are patterened ) Go slow, objective is to get a few cattle thru the setup the first time...so they get the reward at the end.
I find that shaking the bucket with cubes makes distinctive noise.... always do this prior to leading/feeding them... entire herd begins to associate sound with pens, food, etc....

Next time you work them, hopefully the trained ones will more quickly go thru the setup.... you lead them and ..... having somebody gently encourage the others to follow the first group.. hopefully some more will follow the first group in... don't push the unwilling so much they get excited and start running around in the pen, this trains them to do exactly what you don't want them to do... The instinct to follow another animal is very strong...use that....it is FAR easier to pull an animal forward either with a feed bucket...or following another animal than it is to push from behind.

Subsequent tries should be more successful until, hopefully, all make it thru.

Strong hint... have sufficient bunk space such that each animal gets a few cubes.... it's important that they get the reward. This means that the early ones may get more than the late arrivals.. so be it... you need them to not be horning the shy, late arrivals away from the feed.... these are low in the pecking order anyway and most easily discouraged. Often, you will pour out a few cubes.... then a few more.... then a few more..... new batch as more animals arrive thru the setup...

Almost forgot.... leave the stock in the pens for a while...hr or so.. or overnight... the shy laggards will likely self explore their way thru the chutes and discover that nothing bad happens... and that by going thru the chute they get to rejoin the rest of the group, which is comforting.... then, the next time they will be less concerned about going thru it. Also, I just open the gate and let the stock wander out.... slowly.... if you get in the habit of opening the gate and "running" them out, then they start expecting the gate to be opened every time you go by it... and start looking for a way out... You want them to stand around a while ... amazing how many times this trait is handy.... makes it easier to recover "the one that got away" for whatever reason.

It'll all work out.

 

[Spiveyman]

Wow, great ideas. I'm still working through your Word file, but this is all great. I'm going to look like a pro with all of this advice! I really like the idea to let them wonder around the pen on their own, or spend the night in there. It does seem like that would familiarize them with the whole system, and the insight to let them walk out of the pen on their own rather than running them out. I never would have given this much thought into working the animals through the system.

That pecking order thing is for real. The one's that run the show are the ones that are more responsive to our "come and get it" signals. The younger ones usually lag out in the field for a while because they know they will get clobbered if they stick their heads in the grain piles. We'll have to figure out a way to spread out the feed so that everyone can get something to taste.

 

[texasjohn]

You are exactly right... younger = lower in pecking order.
Also, longer horns mean larger pens needed... compared to a polled herd!

Younger stuff won't willingly join into a group/pen that is too tightly packed... they know they will lose lots of turf battles... pens need to be large enough to accomodate entire herd... alternative... have several pens... get older and more aggressive ones in one pen and allow younger stuff to congregate into the other pen... although you will HAVE to let at least one of the most gentle older ones out and into the pen to entice/lead the younger ones into their own pen.

There is no alternative to having lots of linear feed bunk space.... go ahead and get it now...somehow... either numerous long ones that they can stand on both sides of.... or maybe a lot of small ones widely scattered... something you will have to work out.

And, I find that range cubes is the best thing for "call up" feed... you can even toss them widely o n the ground and cover a large area and thus cause quite a bit of time for the cattle to stand around and hunt thm out individually... giving more time for the younger and more timid stuff to join the group.

 

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

I'm so excited I hardly know where to start! I love talking livestock and cattle in particular.

I started reading this thread last Saturday and just got my account activated so I can post.

First You guys are having a great discussion on animal behaviour and "training"! I've not seen anything I disagree with. TexasJohn's suggestions are right on the mark! For example research on feedbunk space at Univ British Columbia dairy research center is verifying exactly what TexasJohn is saying.

If you want to go into more depth on livestock handling facilities I highly recommend you look into the writings of Dr Temple Grandin at Colorado State U. She is autistic and seems to connect well with animals - as a result she has almost singlehandedly revolutionized cattle handing systems in North America. I've met her and heard her speak - I almost wish I suffered from autism sometimes when I'm working animals. She's easy to look up - Google is your friend!

As for that cattle chute you liked - I did not - mainly because it lacked solid sides at the bottom. Way too easy for legs of a squirming animal to get hooked over them. The V-chutes have their problems as you indicated but I like them better than hydraulic systems as I find I can time pulling the bar to catch an animal's head way better this way than with any hydraulic system I've used. Although very rare it is bad news when an animal goes down in a V-chute system.

The other animal behaviour comment I wanted to make has to do with longhorned cattle. I've personally seen Watusi cattle with very very long horns have absolutely no problem with narrow alleyways and V-chutes. They know exactly where the tips of their horns are. The way the eyes sit on their head enable them to see at least and I think more than 180 deg. Longhorns should likewise have no problem - especially with a bit of practice as TexasJohn has suggested.

Finally I wanted to tell you a story that I hope shows that you have a lot of tools at your disposal when handling cattle - here's another one.

A couple years ago I was doing a research project in which I had yearling heifers in a pasture rotation experiment. I had two technicians who were to move them from one pasture to another. They chased them for a couple hours but they would not go through the gate. They called me and I went out there. I found those heifers laying in the grass about 30 yards from the gate they were to go through so I slipped up on them and opened the gate. They kept looking at me nervously thinking about bolting away but they didn't. I then went about 10 yards into the pasture I wanted them in and sat down on the ground in some tall timothy facing mostly away from them although I could see them out of the corner of my eye. By now my technicians were watching from several hundred yards away. Those heifers did exactly as I thought they would! They were so curious that finally one got up came through the gate to see what I was and what I was doing - of course the others followed. They surrounded me and then I stood up and backed toward the gate and they spooked away obviously outsmarting me however they were now in the pasture i wanted them in. I closed the gate and walked back to my technicians. The one who had been raised with livestock said "We'll never hear the end of this will we." I said "now you know why I'm the scientist and your the technicians!" Thank you Temple Grandin for telling me that an animals curiousity is a powerful tool on my side.

Maybe we can get into some talk on management philosophy, pasture management, economics and even fencing.

-Ed-

 

[texasjohn]

Ed.

LOLROF

Welcome to TBN... I can tell I'm going to enjoy your posts!

Well, I think that this does it! This has got to be the most thoroughly hijacked thread I've ever seen on TBN... STARTED OUT as what tractor stuff you gotta have idea and now is advising cowboys to SIT DOWN on the job. I can see that soon we'll add the event of "heifer curiosity" to the panopy of rodeo events... Manly cowboys enticing heifers to obey the cowboy's desires .... he who makes the fewest movements wins


Ed, I'd kinda like to suggest that you start a new thread talking about how to handle cattle, useful equipment, etc.

For one, I agree with your comments re Temple Grandlin and her theories.
Actually, also, your comments re chutes and extra-horned cattle knowing how to move thru them. I just hadn't gotten around to expressing it as fully as you have.

I really enjoyed your method of heifer wrangling... my opinion, there is nothing more flighty than a bunch of weaned undomesticated heifers without a lead cow to show them the way... kinda like a bunch of 13 year old girls at a shopping mall... like herding cats

I read recently that the human brain continues to develop into the teen years and that right about puberty time there is an impulse of additional grey matter added to the human brain. Now, a scientist would be the last to draw a parallel between human and bovine behavior, but since I'm not burdened with having to submit to publish/perish collegue review, I can do it with impunity

 

[Spiveyman]

Howdy Ed, and welcome to TBN - you will absolutely love this site! Thanks for the great story and validation.

I just looked down and saw that texasjohn beat me in there. his post wasn't there when I hit "reply."

Yep, seriously hi-jacked thread, but since I started it, and have followed this rabbit, that makes it OK, doesn't it?

I do agree that we should start a cattle handling thread to resume this, but I did want to post a couple of things. We talked to a guy who designs WW systems. He was nice enough to lay out a small system for us. The price tag was over $10K!!!

In the mean time I started drawing one out to serve our purposes. Here's what I've come up with. It's not to scale, this is just a rough sketch. It may be a little hard to understand the function of the Dube Chute and loading gate if you are not familiar with them.

 

[Spiveyman]

This might help, threw this together to show how the Dube Chute squeezes with opposing gates. I think they call this a meranda hinge (not sure on the spelling there). And also shows how we'd load out through this system. The blue thing at the top is the trailer. It gets a little busy with all the gates drawn in there, but we want flexibility.