Thoughts on a cold weather visit to the dealer

[daTeacha]

I visited the Case dealer this morning to see how the tractors worked in the cold. It was 8 F when I got up today.

I found the following things out.

Their DX33 would not start. The battery was totally dead and they had replaced it once since the one in there was a Crown, not the brand that comes with the tractor. No indictment of the whole line, but still not a good thing. How did it get marked "okay to ship" with what appears to be a short somewhere in the electrical system? Why did they replace the battery on a new tractor without checking out the electrics?

The DX26 started up, then died. It restarted with no problem and was running fine. I tried the steering and the wheels would not turn. The steering wheel would move to the right, but the ground wheels were locked in place in the frozen ground. The steering wheel would not turn to the left and I didn't feel like I should force it. I could not get the range lever out of neutral until after I had pushed the speed pedal into forward for a bit, then the range lever would work. After moving the tractor backward a bit, the steering worked.

Is this typical of PS systems on tractors? If I get a front wheel jammed between two logs, will I only have the option of going forward or back? With my manual steering Kubota, I can crank the wheel harder and force the tires to climb the log while moving. How much lateral force will a typical PS system put on the wheels? Can you get stuck in a deep rut and not be able to steer out? Or is this just something that happened one time to one tractor and only because it was cold?

Driving the thing around, I found the combination of the rocker pedal and steering brakes on the same side made using the steering brakes basically useless. The only way to activate the steering brake is to set the cruise control and then use the brake. This means I can't vary ground speed while using the steering brake, which could be an annoyance. There is no foot throttle on the DX 26 either, which would make it difficult to increase power while steering and operating the hydraulics, which again is a fairly frequently encountered situation the way I use a tractor.

Is this true of all the machines with the brake and pedals on the same side? JD has the brake pedals on the left, the hydro pedals on the right, which was suddenly seeming like the way it should be done.

This is something that I, for one, never encountered with my hydro lawn mowing Cadet 109. On that machine, ground speed is controlled by a lever next to the steering wheel and the throttle is a lever on the dash.

All these things taken together are making me either lean toward JD or toward a gear drive tractor. This despite the fact that I am able to buy Case or NH on the A plan discount.

Thoughts and comments would be appreciated.

 

[wolc123]

I started my recently purchased John Deere 4120 yesterday morning when it was about 5 deg F after running the block heater for about an hour. It started and ran smooth including transmission, power steering and hydraulics. The tractor was stored outside and a cold wind blew on it all night. Earlier in the week, on a slightly warmer day, I started it without using the blockheater. I engaged the preheat by pushing in the key for about 15 seconds before cranking. This time it started ok but sounded a little rough for about 5 seconds before smoothing out. I would reccomend a block heater for any diesel engine tractor when started below 20 deg F, especially if stored outside. After reading your post, I am glad I went with JD.

 

[755inNY]

I can't comment on the PS but I suspect you won't have a problem with it. Lots and lots of tractors out there with PS and I have never heard of anyone complain about limits. It takes a few minutes of run time for the hydraulic fluids to warm up. The systems can be a little anemic until things warm up a bit.

As far as stalling right after starting and then refiring right away. I would not be worried about that either, especially with a very cold start.

It is also not unusual, even with a warm tractor, to have to move forward or back slightly to get the range lever to move. Sometimes you need to relieve the pressure in the transmision.

As far a the brake pedals being on the same side as the hydro pedals I only have one thing to say. Bad Design! This used to be common place when manufacture's simply converted gear drive tractors to hydro. With the gear drive you have the clutch on the left and brake pedals on the right. As it should be. But with the hydro pedals on the right the brakes pedals need to be moved to the left side. Sounds like Case took the easy way out at the expense of the user. Where is the locking differential pedal? On a gear tractor it is on the right. For hydro designs it needs to be on the left to be useful. I bet Case did not move that either. Back in 1988 when I bought my hydro JD 755, John Deere was the only major brand that offered a CUT designed as a hydro. All of the others were gear design conversions with the control layout as you describe for the Case. Now, practically all the major brands have true hydro designs. I guess Case is still behind the times.

A foot throttle is needed on a gear tractor. It is not needed on a hydro as speed is varied with the hydro pedals not the throttle. Simply set the throttle for the work you are doing and use the hydro transmission to vary your speed.

Personally I would stay away from the Case hydro given your description of control locations. It is poorly designed and will not work effectively.

Jeff

 

[daTeacha]

The hydro pedal is on the right for all the tractors I have looked at in the 20 - 35 hp range except the Deere. This includes CNH, Kubota, Mahindra, and Agco. My local Massey dealer doesn't even stock any compacts, selling his NH models instead.

I called the Deere dealer and talked with my sales guy about the steering. He didn't have an answer right away, but is going to check into it. He also mentioned that most people buying HST equipment after running gear equipment find it a little strange to be told to run the engine at about 2500 rpm whenever the machine is being asked to do any work. As I think about it, the guys who did some serious excavating for me did exactly that, as do the construction firms around here.

I guess I'm a little too old school for HSTs. I tend to run the engine just fast enough to do the job I need done at the speed I need to do it. I cut grass, plowed snow, cleared fence lines, and made trails for 25 years with my HST Cadet using that philosophy, and the 10 horse engine finally gave out last fall. Was that my fault for not running it wide open all the time? Somehow, I don't think I hurt it any.

Are there any HST CUTs with a foot throttle? I was thinking in a previous post that it was pretty much a standard item. I was talking with my serious farmer neighbor earlier today, and he said he removed the thing from one of his big tractors because it was always getting accidentally stepped on or snagging a pant leg or such when people were getting on or off the machine.

 

[shvl73]

The Mahindra 10 series have the steer brakes on the left, hydro pedals on the right, with single main brake pedal on the right as well. I run mine at enough throttle to get the job done, from 1500 - 2500 rpm's. I usually run at 2500 rpm's if using a attatchment requiring 540 rpm pto speed.

 

[daTeacha]

Thanks for that on the Mahindra 10. I hadn't given them more than a cursory once over since the dealer is new and doesn't have anything resembling a service department. It's pretty much a two man operation right now. The machines look pretty solid, though. There are not many of them around here, but I hear/read they are fairly popular in other parts of the country.

 

[kozak]

My NH TC35D has no problem starting up first time every time even in very cold weather like you describe. Of course it is in a barn so that probably helps alot. Like the one poster mentioned, if it's out in the elements I would think any tractor will have some problems starting in very cold weather unless you have a block heater. I have one but have never needed to use it.

In so far as brake & HST pedal on the same side, did you look at a DX35. It should be the same as the NH TC35DA which have brake pedals on the left & HST pedal on the right. I agree, I also would not buy a tractor with both pedals on the same side.

Vic

 

[JayC]

<font color="red"> As far a the brake pedals being on the same side as the hydro pedals I only have one thing to say. Bad Design! This used to be common place when manufacture's simply converted gear drive tractors to hydro. With the gear drive you have the clutch on the left and brake pedals on the right. As it should be. But with the hydro pedals on the right the brakes pedals need to be moved to the left side. Sounds like Case took the easy way out at the expense of the user. Where is the locking differential pedal? On a gear tractor it is on the right. For hydro designs it needs to be on the left to be useful. I bet Case did not move that either. Back in 1988 when I bought my hydro JD 755, John Deere was the only major brand that offered a CUT designed as a hydro. All of the others were gear design conversions with the control layout as you describe for the Case. Now, practically all the major brands have true hydro designs. I guess Case is still behind the times. </font>

It's not just Case that does that. The two-pedal systems are in the minority when it comes to HST tractors. Most use the treadle pedal system - Kubota, Kioti, Mahindra 15 Series, Cub Cadet CUT, AGCO machines (includes Massey Ferguson). I'm probably forgetting some brands.

 

[JayC]

As far as dual pedal HST system and foot throttle, the only thing I can recommend is Massey Ferguson. Their large chassis 1500 series (1533/1540/1547/1552) use that system. Here is a snippet from their site:

<font color="red"> 3- Range Hydrostatic
Easy to operate and unmatched performance are what you will get with the new hydrostatic transmission available in the 1533, 1540 and 1547. With separate forward and reverse pedals placed so there is plenty of room to rest your foot you have precise control of speed and travel direction. And the new engine acceleration feature makes this tractor even easier to operate since the HST pedal will also control engine speed.

As you push on the forward/reverse pedal the engine will speed up and then slow down when you begin to let up making this transmission operate like car with an automatic transmission. You can also use the hand throttle to set the speed when you need it to stay constant for operations using the PTO or other operations requiring a constant engine speed.

Easy to operate and long lasting this transmission is a great choice for lawn care, landscaping work or any job where you need to change the direction of travel and travel speed. </font>

Massey Ferguson 1500 Series

 

[frank_f15]

i have a Kubota with ps, HST, and i have never had a prolem with steering. could it be the wheels were just frozen in the ground? then when you moved back they became free? AND you are correct, My KUBOTA has both Brakes and rocker pedals on the same side. Not a big deal to me for as the way i use the tractor . i don't need the brakes to steer but i can see where it might be a disadvantage for some folks.Case make a pretty darn nice tractor, and in my personal opinion. once you get used to PS and hst , you won't want to be without it. NO MATTER THE NAME BRAND. All a matter of personal preference. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif