Three point electrical control problems on Branson 6530C

[dclt736]

Thanks Mark for the detailed information.
I will be looking into this in more detail and getting back to you in what I find.
Douglas

 

[LouNY]

Some serious troubleshooting going on here, it's an interesting read.
Good thing you have your manuals,
Good luck on the rest of the repairs.

 

[Texasmark]

Some serious troubleshooting going on here, it's an interesting read.
Good thing you have your manuals,
Good luck on the rest of the repairs.

Thanks. The manuals look vague at first. But once you start working a problem the fact that they modualrize the functions and troubleshoot at the connector level, it makes it easy. Main problem is understanding the naming of the different functions and what the name represents.

 

[Texasmark]

Douglas,

Couple of clues from today while I was washing the machine.

UP down toggle switch:

Auto Light (just above switch) off: Light on dash comes on immediately with UP toggle and extinguishes immediately with down toggle. Actual 3 pt position depends on speed of hydraulics.

Auto Light on, no toggling of up down switch, 3 pt down: If steering over 35 deg. or upon shifting shuttle to R, dash light immediately comes on and 3 pt raises at the rate of the hydraulics. If you want the 3 pt down once up, toggle down and it will come down, dash light off as soon as you hit the toggle.

I didn't play with what happens if you were up in auto, dropped it with the toggle, still have steering and shuttle in same position and you want it back up.....guess you just have to toggle back up manually as nothing changed to tell the auto circuit you went down....aka steering the same and shuttle still in R........buttttt I can check tomorrow if necessary.

 

[Texasmark]

Today's activities. Only addressing motor, rear mounted position lever, auto function, toggle switch, interior position control, 3 pt. position (everything else is already covered):

1. If internal position control is up, nothing else works because there is an arm on the control shaft (to the internal hydraulics on the right side of the main casting) that blocks the motor or external position control from changing anything....they are on a separate concentric shaft. The motor can move like it's going to do something but the connecting shaft is slotted and it just slides along the slot...no connection to any control arms.

2. For the auto function, toggle switch (regardless of light on or off), or the external position control to work, the internal position control must be down or somewhere other than full up. With it Full Down (or variances thereof) the following can occur WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING:

Auto light....................Toggle.................3 pt position
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OFF.............................Up-Down..............follows toggle direction.
ON..............................Up-Down..............follows toggle direction.
ON.........................................................3 pt down, turning beyond 35 degrees or Shuttle in R, 3 pt lifts to full up.

Only way to get it down is to toggle it down, shuttle out of Reverse. If you have 3 pt. down and go back into R/steering position, it will come back up.

If Auto Light is off, F-R shuttle/steering positions have no effect on position of 3 pt.
-------------
A motor failure will prevent the toggle or the Auto function from operating the 3 pt when F-R and steering are in the active positions. Motor failure could include loss of power or return caused by a defective supply component.

 

[dclt736]

Hi Mark
Great explanations of how the system works.
What I have now after all this is the following:

With Auto three point hitch control OFF:
Three point hitch now fully functions on the up/down switch. This was not the case when I purchased the machine. In my work, I think I found that someone had connected the motor and the control relay PCB incorrectly, as the two use the same connectors style. Once I reconnected them, I saw this problem (two same connectors) and had to use wire color to work out which connector went to which component. Once done correctly the up/down switch became fully functional as well as the dash light. The dash light now goes out as soon as down is selected.

With Auto turn ON:
If the three point hitch is in a down position, as soon as the Auto button is pressed, the arms are raised.
The down switch will cause the arms to go down when they are toggled to down as it should.
It also will lift them up if press to the up position again confirming that the up/down control is working 100 percent.
However, putting the tractor into reverse or turning the wheels has no effect, ie the arms do not go up if down.
I check the operations of both the front axle switch and the reversing switch and both are working, however the odd thing was that I only saw about 4.5 volts going into those switches. This to me doesn’t seem right as all the other switches had 14+ volts and as the diagram shows them all common connected, and it doesn’t look like a ground common I didn’t understand that difference.

Second to all this, the PTO auto function also does not work( has not work since I purchased the tractor), ie, when the PTO is turned on to link or independent, the auto switch lights up regardless if it is on or off, and does not affect the PTO operation if you lift the three point hitch. Dash light also remains on the full time the PTO is in linked or independent mode.

Barring the odd voltage reading, the only common item that I see as the cause of this problem is the PCB board at the rear of the tractor.
I also have not been able to find the diodes that are shown in series of the axle and reverse switch, they could be part of that PCB?

I sent an email to Branson USA head office with request to call them, but they have not replied to my email in 4 days, making it pretty obvious that they want you to deal with your dealer. My problem is that my dealer is not able to help due to lack of experience on this older model.

The cost of that PCB is 280.00 plus shipping, and none returnable is that is not the problem.

So I have to look at the PCB again to see if I can see any sort of defect on it that might support the replacement.

Pretty sure that you will also advise that it is pointing to that being the source of my electrical issue.

Thanks
Douglas

 

[Texasmark]

Hi Mark
Great explanations of how the system works.
What I have now after all this is the following:

With Auto three point hitch control OFF:
Three point hitch now fully functions on the up/down switch. This was not the case when I purchased the machine. In my work, I think I found that someone had connected the motor and the control relay PCB incorrectly, as the two use the same connectors style. Once I reconnected them, I saw this problem (two same connectors) and had to use wire color to work out which connector went to which component. Once done correctly the up/down switch became fully functional as well as the dash light. The dash light now goes out as soon as down is selected.

With Auto turn ON:
If the three point hitch is in a down position, as soon as the Auto button is pressed, the arms are raised.
The down switch will cause the arms to go down when they are toggled to down as it should.
It also will lift them up if press to the up position again confirming that the up/down control is working 100 percent.
However, putting the tractor into reverse or turning the wheels has no effect, ie the arms do not go up if down.
I check the operations of both the front axle switch and the reversing switch and both are working, however the odd thing was that I only saw about 4.5 volts going into those switches. This to me doesn’t seem right as all the other switches had 14+ volts and as the diagram shows them all common connected, and it doesn’t look like a ground common I didn’t understand that difference.

Second to all this, the PTO auto function also does not work( has not work since I purchased the tractor), ie, when the PTO is turned on to link or independent, the auto switch lights up regardless if it is on or off, and does not affect the PTO operation if you lift the three point hitch. Dash light also remains on the full time the PTO is in linked or independent mode.

Barring the odd voltage reading, the only common item that I see as the cause of this problem is the PCB board at the rear of the tractor.
I also have not been able to find the diodes that are shown in series of the axle and reverse switch, they could be part of that PCB?

I sent an email to Branson USA head office with request to call them, but they have not replied to my email in 4 days, making it pretty obvious that they want you to deal with your dealer. My problem is that my dealer is not able to help due to lack of experience on this older model.

The cost of that PCB is 280.00 plus shipping, and none returnable is that is not the problem.

So I have to look at the PCB again to see if I can see any sort of defect on it that might support the replacement.

Pretty sure that you will also advise that it is pointing to that being the source of my electrical issue.

Thanks
Douglas

1. I assume the PWB you are describing in the Back Up Controller shown on pages 6-28 bottom and 6-29 top?

2. Page 6-25: Rectangle on right side of schematic to Lamp Switch pin B is YG (yellow green or grey stripe). Pin H of that switch is not connected and S is. Do you get continuity through the switch when the button is pressed...on off thing. Next, I need to know whether the connection to pin B brinds in 14v or ground from the big rectangle (assuming it's a relay).

3. I need a clear image of the top of the circuit card. Looking for a relay, pinout identification and part number if possible....somewhere on it should be/usually is the part number. Relays are cheap....like a buck from China. I just had a similar problem with an LG air conditioner....compressor relay was old and welded shut....wouldn't turn off. Got the PN off it, googled and had a replacement for a song.

4. When you measure 4.5 volts at the front axle sensors, do you have the plug removed, probing the power input pin? Do both read the same voltage?

 

[dclt736]

Hi Mark
reply by the numbers

1: yes that is what i have been referring to as the PCB board
2: will have to to pull switch to check that for you Mark, so tomorrow evening I will check. I know i get continuity through the switch, but not if it is ground or 14+ volts at B, will be easy enough to check tomorrow.
3:I will removed the box that has the PCB inside and get a good image to upload as well tomorrow. I am pretty sure that there are two small relays on that board, about half the size of the one under the hood.
4:I have the switch wires disconnected, just inside the engine side cover left side, there is a connection point. I measure the voltage at one wire only, (other lead on voltmeter to ground on tractor) and it is there all the time the tractor key is turned on, no effect turning on the three point hitch auto up function button or operating the up/down switch which I think is odd, I think we should have 14+ volts on one wire going to the diodes. I also will double check the MO2 RW wire for voltage again at the connector end (BS 6FB shown on middle far right page 6-25)

 

[dclt736]

Hi Mark
Thanks for the revised reply to my earlier questions.
I have done further testing based on some of the questions you had asked but I guess you changed the post somewhat.

The control PCB is located in a plastic housing under the panel holding the tractor seat.
It has those two large connectors you spoke about and shown on pages 6-25.
I have attached some photos. This PCB contains two smaller relays, and when you use the up down switch, you can hear them operate.
I tried to do voltage testing, but it lead me to more questions then answers and the voltage is only on most of the system while the motor runs, which is about 2 or 3 seconds so it is near impossible to trace and if you disconnect anything it changes where the voltage is found.

First for the back up switch, i see that the Red with (L) blue line wire, has a good 12 volts at it, but the Yellow Green line wires, (2 of them) have about 11.5 volts which seems to tell me that they are connected to other voltage sources looking for ground?
I find the wiring diagram lacking good information. On that switch they use the letters S, H and B, but do not transfer that information to the connector.
I find that the push on operation seems to connect the YG and BY wires.
Also i double checked all the switches and when disconnected you can test them for open/close and they all work as they should.
I don't understand the MO3 Blue Yellow line that interconnects all these switches other then they put the voltage to the MO3 pin on the PCB connector pin 11 connector B.
I did follow some of the debugging testing they laid out, and for one item, Connector A of the Back up Controller, it show that Pin 5 should have 12 volts when the key is off and Pin 6 should have voltage when the key is On, however i find power on both pins when key is on. And question why there would be any power back there when the key is off.
I have to wonder how correct this trouble shooting is.

As for wire B that you state goes to the back up relay, this wire must act as the ground for that relay to operate.
I know that I had to pull that relay, as the lights seem to be staying on, but having it removed, should in no way effect the operation for the auto up side of things, which again makes me think that the MO3 BY wire is use to ground out the switch connections.

I still have no idea of where to look for those two diodes, and not sure how they help if that path is to ground.

Right now i am more confused then before.
Looking at the PCB, I cannot see any damage, but since that board is almost impossible to understand, do I just replace it?

Calling it a night, not happy with the three hours spend trouble shooting, as I said, I am more confused now they ever.
Douglas

 

[Texasmark]

Hi Mark
Thanks for the revised reply to my earlier questions.
I have done further testing based on some of the questions you had asked but I guess you changed the post somewhat.

The control PCB is located in a plastic housing under the panel holding the tractor seat.
It has those two large connectors you spoke about and shown on pages 6-25.
I have attached some photos. This PCB contains two smaller relays, and when you use the up down switch, you can hear them operate.
I tried to do voltage testing, but it lead me to more questions then answers and the voltage is only on most of the system while the motor runs, which is about 2 or 3 seconds so it is near impossible to trace and if you disconnect anything it changes where the voltage is found.
View attachment 563164View attachment 563165View attachment 563163
First for the back up switch, i see that the Red with (L) blue line wire, has a good 12 volts at it, but the Yellow Green line wires, (2 of them) have about 11.5 volts which seems to tell me that they are connected to other voltage sources looking for ground?
I find the wiring diagram lacking good information. On that switch they use the letters S, H and B, but do not transfer that information to the connector.
I find that the push on operation seems to connect the YG and BY wires.
Also i double checked all the switches and when disconnected you can test them for open/close and they all work as they should.
I don't understand the MO3 Blue Yellow line that interconnects all these switches other then they put the voltage to the MO3 pin on the PCB connector pin 11 connector B.
I did follow some of the debugging testing they laid out, and for one item, Connector A of the Back up Controller, it show that Pin 5 should have 12 volts when the key is off and Pin 6 should have voltage when the key is On, however i find power on both pins when key is on. And question why there would be any power back there when the key is off.
I have to wonder how correct this trouble shooting is.

As for wire B that you state goes to the back up relay, this wire must act as the ground for that relay to operate.
I know that I had to pull that relay, as the lights seem to be staying on, but having it removed, should in no way effect the operation for the auto up side of things, which again makes me think that the MO3 BY wire is use to ground out the switch connections.

I still have no idea of where to look for those two diodes, and not sure how they help if that path is to ground.

Right now i am more confused then before.
Looking at the PCB, I cannot see any damage, but since that board is almost impossible to understand, do I just replace it?

Calling it a night, not happy with the three hours spend trouble shooting, as I said, I am more confused now they ever.
Douglas

Will take this a piece at a time.
The reason I changed my reply from earlier was because I had new conflicting/more detailed information than I had posted.

Thanks for telling me the location of the PCB if I ever need to "find" it.

The fact that you used the plural relay word tells me that like in your truck, a small current switch, conveniently located does the commanding and a remote relay does the work.... (up-up relay, down-down relay) . I think we can feel confident that the UP Down function and drive motor are ok. Also, by using a "steering diode" and a remote command function, and the fact that they use a separate relay to tell the motor which way to turn, tells me that we have eliminated a lot of components as the potential problem. Think about the things in the tractor that make the arms rise via this relay and you'll see why the relay is a summing junction.

Now that we know that, all we have to do is trace down the sensor to relay circuits to find the problem. (opinion)

Will digest what you wrote last night and post as I go through it.

Mark

Edit 1: The rectangular box on the right side of the wiring diagram IS apparently this PCB.

I think we found the location of the steering diodes. You can disconnect the connectors and get across each diode to check it's integrity.

Nothing appears to be overheated/damaged.

The fact that they are using premium resistors (painted Metal Oxide), lends itself to resistors that survive the test of time without changing value like carbon composition.

You have the ability to setup a bench test station for that PCB? We can trouble shoot it and determine what's working and what's not if anything.

The puzzling thing is that we have found the "work center" like the axle of a wheel. The rest of the system consists of remote sensors, like the individual spokes. We have several functions that don't work from individual, remote sensors........as you said, confusing. Has to be common ground somewhere besides this PCB and the motor.

Edit 2: More about the card....on second thought.

There is your part number for the relay if needed and 10 ampere rating. Each has 5 contacts making them SPDT. That simplifies that.

What I don't like is that something has spilled onto the card and ran all over it, under the relays, and on the back side (opinion). Who knows what that is and whether or not it is conductive. If it were my card I'd take 91% alcohol and a wooden stick cotton swab (ebay has them with a long stick) and see if you can remove it from both sides......since your hay is up (assumption) maybe you have time to work on the problem/potential problems.

I don't think I would worry about what, if anything may have gotten under the relays since they are single pole and seem to be working as designed.

Edit 3:

"First for the back up switch, i see that the Red with (L) blue line wire, has a good 12 volts at it, but the Yellow Green line wires, (2 of them) have about 11.5 volts which seems to tell me that they are connected to other voltage sources looking for ground?"

I'd opt for steering diodes being in that circuit and you are seeing the forward diode drop.
---------------
"I don't understand the MO3 Blue Yellow line that interconnects all these switches other then they put the voltage to the MO3 pin on the PCB connector pin 11 connector B."

My take is that its a common buss, either voltage or ground. If we knew which it might help in locating the problem.

I'm still curious about your 4.5 volts at the front axle turn sensors.....That very well may be a clue to the problem, You just have a remote switch. If you measured it while closed then I can buy it as there are other components in the circuit and they are dropping part of the 14v. If you measure it with the switch open....(steering straight ahead I guess is when it is in the open state) then you should read full 14v......a piece of data that would be helpful.

------------------
"I did follow some of the debugging testing they laid out, and for one item, Connector A of the Back up Controller, it show that Pin 5 should have 12 volts when the key is off and Pin 6 should have voltage when the key is On, however i find power on both pins when key is on. And question why there would be any power back there when the key is off.
I have to wonder how correct this trouble shooting is."

I'll work on answering this best I can later today.